Tube sound - what the artist/engineer intended?

[Deleted member 87496]

I love the clarity and transparency of today's solid state amps. I am an advocate, like most of you, of hearing songs as the artist/producer/engineer meant them to be heard - without coloration or distortions (imagine the Mona Lisa as a blond or redhead...yikes). In the early 60s, my parents bought a new stereo system for our living room. It had a Scott tube amp. I'm not the nostalgic type, so in older age feel no need to consider, much less explore, modern or vintage tube amps (if it ain't broke...). But I recently had a conversation with someone who is zealous about early jazz (Louis, Ella, Ellington, Bix, Rich, on and on and on, you name it). I often listen to albums recorded in the 40's, 50's, and early-mid 60's - not just jazz (Parker, Coltrane, Miles), but blues (Howlin' Wolf, Skip James, Bessie), country (Hank, Cash, Patsy), early rock and roll (Elvis, Chuck, Sun Record compilations, Beatles), folk (Guthrie, Baez, Dylan), gospel (Soul Stirrers, Mahalia) - LOVE music from those seminal days of American music, a golden age of American artistry. About 50% of my current listening are albums from this era. Yet, this guy pointed out, ALL my listening is with a solid state amp - Shouldn't I be listening to those olden recordings with tube amplification, ideally vintage, as those albums were produced with tube technology and were meant by all concerned - artists, musicians, producers, engineers - to be heard through tube amps? I dislike the very idea of tubes, too inconvenient and complex, and am definitely not at all keen on introducing less transparency/more distortion to my music. But my friend's logic has been gnawing at me. Should I get a tube amp specifically (and only) for those pre-SS recordings to truly hear them as they were intended to be heard? I dread going down the tube rabbit hole and would welcome to learn of anything we're overlooking that would make a tubular adventure unnecessary (or a downright bad idea). Help, please! Any and all thoughts are appreciated...many thanks in advance.

 

[Purité Audio]

Fine measuring valve amplifiers sound exactly like solid state, and Hi-Fi (high fidelity) for me is trying to reproduce the file as accurately as possible notwithstanding when it was created.
However for amusement I can the logic of re-creating a period hi-fi for occasional use.
Keith

 

[Chr1]

As with any hobby, I think part of the fun is trying a range of different equipment. My other hobby is motorcycles. I have several motorcycles and several hifi systems now, and switch between them frequently. I particularly enjoy using valves with a pair of big Tannoys. I reckon there's nothing wrong with using whatever you want personally. I'd always say that you should have one system that is reference and accurate, but nothing wrong with trying different things. Even in playback.

 

[levimax]

I love the clarity and transparency of today's solid state amps. I am an advocate, like most of you, of hearing songs as the artist/producer/engineer meant them to be heard - without coloration or distortions (imagine the Mona Lisa as a blond or redhead...yikes). In the early 60s, my parents bought a new stereo system for our living room. It had a Scott tube amp. I'm not the nostalgic type, so in older age feel no need to consider, much less explore, modern or vintage tube amps (if it ain't broke...). But I recently had a conversation with someone who is zealous about early jazz (Louis, Ella, Ellington, Bix, Rich, on and on and on, you name it). I often listen to albums recorded in the 40's, 50's, and early-mid 60's - not just jazz (Parker, Coltrane, Miles), but blues (Howlin' Wolf, Skip James, Bessie), country (Hank, Cash, Patsy), early rock and roll (Elvis, Chuck, Sun Record compilations, Beatles), folk (Guthrie, Baez, Dylan), gospel (Soul Stirrers, Mahalia) - LOVE music from those seminal days of American music, a golden age of American artistry. About 50% of my current listening are albums from this era. Yet, this guy pointed out, ALL my listening is with a solid state amp - Shouldn't I be listening to those olden recordings with tube amplification, ideally vintage, as those albums were produced with tube technology and were meant by all concerned - artists, musicians, producers, engineers - to be heard through tube amps? I dislike the very idea of tubes, too inconvenient and complex, and am definitely not at all keen on introducing less transparency/more distortion to my music. But my friend's logic has been gnawing at me. Should I get a tube amp specifically (and only) for those pre-SS recordings to truly hear them as they were intended to be heard? I dread going down the tube rabbit hole and would welcome to learn of anything we're overlooking that would make a tubular adventure unnecessary (or a downright bad idea). Help, please! Any and all thoughts are appreciated...many thanks in advance.

As mentioned good tube amps (as were used during the recording of the older recordings you are listening to) are indistinguishable from good SS amps and even if they weren't whatever change to the sound the equipment of the day made it will be captured in the old recordings and will be reproduced as on the recording with modern equipment. I also enjoy listening to recording of this era and they can have a different sound than modern recordings but this is due to different recording styles (some of which was dictated by limitations of the equipment of the day) rather than by tube amps. This means playing back old recordings on high performance modern gear will sound just like it did back in the day on top notch studio equipment of the day. If you tried to "add" more vintage sound during the playback process by using some inaccurate equipment you will just get distorted playback of old recordings.

 

[Oddball]

Tubes are so hugely different that I would rather get the new speakers instead of trying to travel back in time. EQ can help quite a bit with tuning the sound either way you want. Knowing where you want to go is obviously important.

 

[DVDdoug]

Studios have always used the best equipment they could get their hands on. I'm sure everyone involved would like consumers to listen on equally-good, or better, equipment.

Here's something semi-related that I saved from Ethan Winer's book:

Many aspiring recording engineers today appreciate some of the great recordings from the mid-twentieth century. But when they are unable to make their own amateur efforts sound as good, they wrongly assume they need the same gear that was used back then. Of course, the real reason so many old recordings sound wonderful is because they were made by very good engineers in great (often very large) studios having excellent acoustics.

I'm sometimes surprised by how good a lot of 1960's recordings sound on CD. The records never sounded that good. I knew pro tape had better specs but I didn't know how good it could sound and I didn't think they even cared.

I'm pretty sure they didn't care when it came to the record production because there were a few "good sounding" records that stood-out from the rest.

Fine measuring valve amplifiers sound exactly like solid state

And if a tube amplifier isn't "fine" it's going to sound different from every other tube amplifier. I don't know when McIntosh started making amplifiers but in the 1970s somebody gave me mono tube McIntosh, and other than being mono it sounded perfect!

If you go way back to the days of acoustic gramophones without electronics, it might be different. There was no standard RIAA equalization (or multiple different "standards") and there was nothing in the high frequency range except noise. There's a good chance that it would sound better on a gramophone...OK

 

[OldHvyMec]

I still listen to a standup Victrola during the Christmas season. I was raised on quality mono/stereo gear. I still listen to a few 78 mono records. Some of that music wouldn't sound the same on anything modern. I wouldn't be looking to change what I heard in my pre-teens and then on into my HS days.

I have always used valves and tried SS as they evolved. Personally, I like both. I started with my Dad's Western Electric gear and then sold it to fund my first McIntosh gear in the 1970s. I've never stopped using Mcintosh, nor would I want to. BUT I did ADD SS to the mix around 1990 or so and have enjoyed a few different brands.

I like Pass Labs and the way he voices his early gear. As I got older and less tolerant to the heat in my 50s, I looked for a cooler-running amp. I still stuck with my Mcintosh preamps though and even upgraded from C20, C11, and MX110z. I still kept them all but was quit pleased with XLR, solid state and OpAmp based gear. I went to class Ds around 2000 or so and actually enjoy them in combination with the older Mac preamps. I also use Cary valve gear for both pre and power amps in the winter in particular.

In other words I like it all and love switching between the different brands and the different sounds. Trust me Cary has a sound of its own and you can really change how it sounds.

Compare a Cary SLP-05/V12R with EL-34s to a Mcintosh C53/Nord NC500, LOL, they aren't even close, BUT I love listening to either, especially with certain records/CDs/cassettes/Reel-to-Reel or streaming.

One of my favorites is the early Stones on the Cary Gear with my sub/bass management system. I love small planar/ribbon LS speakers and GRs OB servo subs or my own concoction of Behringer DCX2496/NU12,000 with bass columns and passive DIY subs.

I love to tinker, I'm not to interested is cheap lightweight gear, though I'm listening to a Fosi ZP3/Nord combo as I speak. To each his own and enjoy what you have is my moto. I really like that Fosi to tell the truth, wonderful little preamp. I'm going to hook it to a Cary V12R and a pair of VMPS RM30s I'm setting up. We'll see.

Enjoy what ever you try and can afford, ay!!!

Regards

 

[Robin L]

I love the clarity and transparency of today's solid state amps. I am an advocate, like most of you, of hearing songs as the artist/producer/engineer meant them to be heard - without coloration or distortions (imagine the Mona Lisa as a blond or redhead...yikes). In the early 60s, my parents bought a new stereo system for our living room. It had a Scott tube amp. I'm not the nostalgic type, so in older age feel no need to consider, much less explore, modern or vintage tube amps (if it ain't broke...). But I recently had a conversation with someone who is zealous about early jazz (Louis, Ella, Ellington, Bix, Rich, on and on and on, you name it). I often listen to albums recorded in the 40's, 50's, and early-mid 60's - not just jazz (Parker, Coltrane, Miles), but blues (Howlin' Wolf, Skip James, Bessie), country (Hank, Cash, Patsy), early rock and roll (Elvis, Chuck, Sun Record compilations, Beatles), folk (Guthrie, Baez, Dylan), gospel (Soul Stirrers, Mahalia) - LOVE music from those seminal days of American music, a golden age of American artistry. About 50% of my current listening are albums from this era. Yet, this guy pointed out, ALL my listening is with a solid state amp - Shouldn't I be listening to those olden recordings with tube amplification, ideally vintage, as those albums were produced with tube technology and were meant by all concerned - artists, musicians, producers, engineers - to be heard through tube amps? I dislike the very idea of tubes, too inconvenient and complex, and am definitely not at all keen on introducing less transparency/more distortion to my music. But my friend's logic has been gnawing at me. Should I get a tube amp specifically (and only) for those pre-SS recordings to truly hear them as they were intended to be heard? I dread going down the tube rabbit hole and would welcome to learn of anything we're overlooking that would make a tubular adventure unnecessary (or a downright bad idea). Help, please! Any and all thoughts are appreciated...many thanks in advance.

I had a Scott 299B about a decade ago. It has a really nice phono stage, is pretty useless with CDs on account of the aux inputs being easily overloaded, also had some other issues, probably on account of the simplicity of the tape loop and other problems related to how old the unit was. The tubes failed about three years after I got it, the amp ended up being sold at a garage sale. The Capitol grey-label mono issues of Frank Sinatra and Nat King Cole never sounded better, same applied to Ella Fitzgerald's Verve recordings. From personal experience I'd say the turntables and tubes experience worked best with these sorts of records. But I'm now experiencing the best sound I've ever had (overall) with a Yamaha AVR and streamed music. If one really wants that "analog" experience, then there are no halfway measures. Transformer coupled tube amps usually roll off at frequency extremes hiding a lot of nasties at frequency extremes that can be audible via more "transparent" gear. Your call.

 

[Sokel]

It's not only about amps.
So, as the artist indented...

Look at the size of the speaker.
It's this one:

(Source)
Now you can take it from here.

(I'm nuts about '50s stuff, but classical ones and those were used to create masterpieces of the era, "Living Stereo" works for example)

 

[EERecordist]

My philosophy is there are dividing lines - |.
Musicians/instruments | microphones | preamps/tracking console/track recording | mixing/processing/master | mastering | release format | playback/room.

I'm an electrical engineer and former recording engineer, so I could describe each of those transfer functions. Perhaps the OP could look through the ASR review index at tube preamps and amp harmonics and noise.

I would put my energy into the cleanest most modern last stage at an affordable price point and WAF. I would not go back to tubes because that would violate the artistic intent of all the previous stages.

I would strongly disagree with "recorded on tubes must be played on tubes."

 

[Sokel]

My philosophy is there are dividing lines - |.
Musicians/instruments | microphones | preamps/tracking console/track recording | mixing/processing/master | mastering | release format | playback/room.

I'm an electrical engineer and former recording engineer, so I could describe each of those transfer functions. Perhaps the OP could look through the ASR review index at tube preamps and amp harmonics and noise.

I would put my energy into the cleanest most modern last stage at an affordable price point and WAF. I would not go back to tubes because that would violate the artistic intent of all the previous stages.

I would strongly disagree with "recorded on tubes must be played on tubes."

OK now.
Let's take the best case of the control speaker I posted above.
It already has a roll off at about 4kHz at its "flattest" setting (it has three, visible at the chart)

If we take the worst case, it's not just a roll-off, it's a sudden death of highs.
How would that translate?

(yet, they made masterpieces, even played back by truly good today's mains monitors)

 

[Groove01]

I'm nuts about '50s stuff,

I am too! I wish I had the space (and $$) to keep examples of several really key pieces from that era.

I’ve a got a few standards (Dynaco MK II’s with Curcio boards, Heathkit WF-M’s, and a Heathkit SP-2) that I do enjoy quite a bit. I’d love to get a nice pair of MC 30’s as well as Fairchild 275’s.

 

[Deleted member 87496]

Thank you all for your thoughts and perspectives. I truly appreciate them. I'm still digesting them and need sometime to get my head around your points. I may very well be back with further questions, or asking others to clarify. But I wanted to thank you all now for your prompt and thorough responses. Much appreciated!!

 

[Deleted member 87496]

My philosophy is there are dividing lines - |.
Musicians/instruments | microphones | preamps/tracking console/track recording | mixing/processing/master | mastering | release format | playback/room.

I'm an electrical engineer and former recording engineer, so I could describe each of those transfer functions. Perhaps the OP could look through the ASR review index at tube preamps and amp harmonics and noise.

I would put my energy into the cleanest most modern last stage at an affordable price point and WAF. I would not go back to tubes because that would violate the artistic intent of all the previous stages.

I would strongly disagree with "recorded on tubes must be played on tubes."

Well you know a heck of a lot more than I do about these parameters and I see no reason to disagree with your disagreement re: "recorded on tubes must be played on tubes" Your answer is a technical one, but I was also referring to artistic intention. Back in the day, 50s and early-mid 60s say, wouldn't the artist/producer/engineer team understand that their recording would be played and heard through tube amplification (say a Scott or Fisher amp in someone's home) and therefore do their tweaking, engineering, and recording within that framework and expectation? In other words, wouldn't they intend their music to be heard through the tubes amps of the day? If so, should we honor their artistic vision and intention, by listening to those olden recordings with, for instance, one of those Scotts or Fishers? I don't know the answer, why I am asking, but it seems like a logical question to ask.

 

[Deleted member 87496]

I had a Scott 299B about a decade ago. It has a really nice phono stage, is pretty useless with CDs on account of the aux inputs being easily overloaded, also had some other issues, probably on account of the simplicity of the tape loop and other problems related to how old the unit was. The tubes failed about three years after I got it, the amp ended up being sold at a garage sale. The Capitol grey-label mono issues of Frank Sinatra and Nat King Cole never sounded better, same applied to Ella Fitzgerald's Verve recordings. From personal experience I'd say the turntables and tubes experience worked best with these sorts of records. But I'm now experiencing the best sound I've ever had (overall) with a Yamaha AVR and streamed music. If one really wants that "analog" experience, then there are no halfway measures. Transformer coupled tube amps usually roll off at frequency extremes hiding a lot of nasties at frequency extremes that can be audible via more "transparent" gear. Your call.

LOVE the Dylan lyrics...amazing song, one of his best 5 albums ever, imho. He hadn't sound that playful since Freewheelin' through Highway 61 days (with the odd exception here and there, eg Buckets of Rain).

 

[Deleted member 87496]

It's not only about amps.
So, as the artist indented...

View attachment 474354


Look at the size of the speaker.
It's this one:

View attachment 474355
(Source)
Now you can take it from here.

(I'm nuts about '50s stuff, but classical ones and those were used to create masterpieces of the era, "Living Stereo" works for example)

Wow, great combination of photos. Elvis wondering what happened to the highs.

 

[SSS]

When I listen old records from the 1950ies up with a good SS audio chain then I can hear all the flaws which are in the recording. Also the old style reverb units which does not give a clean sound. I doubt that listening with tube amps the sound quality will rise. Bad sound will be always bad sound. The recording engineers at those old days did probably the best they could. And errors induced by cutting and pressing vinyl are still there. I agree there are also good sounding recordings especially jazz. Note, the 45 rpm singles have by design better sound quality than the 33 rpm LPs. At the end, it is the music which I enjoy regardless of true fidelity. And there the musicians were real live performers which could record in just only one take. Since I restored old Ampex tape recorders I know these were not perfect.

 

[Adis]

I love the clarity and transparency of today's solid state amps. I am an advocate, like most of you, of hearing songs as the artist/producer/engineer meant them to be heard - without coloration or distortions (imagine the Mona Lisa as a blond or redhead...yikes). In the early 60s, my parents bought a new stereo system for our living room. It had a Scott tube amp. I'm not the nostalgic type, so in older age feel no need to consider, much less explore, modern or vintage tube amps (if it ain't broke...). But I recently had a conversation with someone who is zealous about early jazz (Louis, Ella, Ellington, Bix, Rich, on and on and on, you name it). I often listen to albums recorded in the 40's, 50's, and early-mid 60's - not just jazz (Parker, Coltrane, Miles), but blues (Howlin' Wolf, Skip James, Bessie), country (Hank, Cash, Patsy), early rock and roll (Elvis, Chuck, Sun Record compilations, Beatles), folk (Guthrie, Baez, Dylan), gospel (Soul Stirrers, Mahalia) - LOVE music from those seminal days of American music, a golden age of American artistry. About 50% of my current listening are albums from this era. Yet, this guy pointed out, ALL my listening is with a solid state amp - Shouldn't I be listening to those olden recordings with tube amplification, ideally vintage, as those albums were produced with tube technology and were meant by all concerned - artists, musicians, producers, engineers - to be heard through tube amps? I dislike the very idea of tubes, too inconvenient and complex, and am definitely not at all keen on introducing less transparency/more distortion to my music. But my friend's logic has been gnawing at me. Should I get a tube amp specifically (and only) for those pre-SS recordings to truly hear them as they were intended to be heard? I dread going down the tube rabbit hole and would welcome to learn of anything we're overlooking that would make a tubular adventure unnecessary (or a downright bad idea). Help, please! Any and all thoughts are appreciated...many thanks in advance.

Folowing that logic: why stop at amps - you need Altec 604s as well.

 

[egellings]

I love the clarity and transparency of today's solid state amps. I am an advocate, like most of you, of hearing songs as the artist/producer/engineer meant them to be heard - without coloration or distortions (imagine the Mona Lisa as a blond or redhead...yikes). In the early 60s, my parents bought a new stereo system for our living room. It had a Scott tube amp. I'm not the nostalgic type, so in older age feel no need to consider, much less explore, modern or vintage tube amps (if it ain't broke...). But I recently had a conversation with someone who is zealous about early jazz (Louis, Ella, Ellington, Bix, Rich, on and on and on, you name it). I often listen to albums recorded in the 40's, 50's, and early-mid 60's - not just jazz (Parker, Coltrane, Miles), but blues (Howlin' Wolf, Skip James, Bessie), country (Hank, Cash, Patsy), early rock and roll (Elvis, Chuck, Sun Record compilations, Beatles), folk (Guthrie, Baez, Dylan), gospel (Soul Stirrers, Mahalia) - LOVE music from those seminal days of American music, a golden age of American artistry. About 50% of my current listening are albums from this era. Yet, this guy pointed out, ALL my listening is with a solid state amp - Shouldn't I be listening to those olden recordings with tube amplification, ideally vintage, as those albums were produced with tube technology and were meant by all concerned - artists, musicians, producers, engineers - to be heard through tube amps? I dislike the very idea of tubes, too inconvenient and complex, and am definitely not at all keen on introducing less transparency/more distortion to my music. But my friend's logic has been gnawing at me. Should I get a tube amp specifically (and only) for those pre-SS recordings to truly hear them as they were intended to be heard? I dread going down the tube rabbit hole and would welcome to learn of anything we're overlooking that would make a tubular adventure unnecessary (or a downright bad idea). Help, please! Any and all thoughts are appreciated...many thanks in advance.

See if it's possible to borrow or rent a tube amp setup for a couple of listening sessions with your system and see for yourself if there is anything to it. If you find it unappealing, then there's no loss when you return the amplifier setup except for shipping and maybe rental fees. Problem with tube amps is that they generally have a high output impedance compared to S.S. ones, and that can interact with the speaker's impedance in voltage divider action of the two impedances-the speaker's and the amp's. Impedance variations over frequency in the speaker will cause variations in amplitude response altering sound quality. It just might be that a certain combination of amp & speaker may sound euphonic, the way whipped cream can enhance a slice of pumpkin pie. Problem is, do you want whipped cream on every food item you eat?

 

[The_Fall]

I, like you, listen to a lot of older music and recordings. I do not think your amp technology is at issue all. Many older recordings were mixed and mastered for the formats of the day: 45s, or AM radio (and small single woofer speakers). As such, they were mixed with reduced low bass energy and reduced high end clarity... realistically just missing the frequency extremes. So the music will sit 'comfortable' within a full range amp.

You may want to explore vintage gear for the fun of it all... but I wouldn't stress.