• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Tube Rolling: Does it Make a Difference?

piczus

Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2022
Messages
5
Likes
3
Thank you. I believe in my ears. Why some amplifiers sound differently when their frequency measure is very or even the same?;)
 

Angsty

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Apr 11, 2020
Messages
1,862
Likes
2,215
Location
North Carolina, U.S.
Welcome to the forum.
Where are your measurements of your extraordinary results?
No measurements? It didn't happen.
Kind of a harsh intro to ASR…

My take would be that without measurements, no one can be sure that what you heard was repeatable or objective. More words, but a bit less edgy.
 

piczus

Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2022
Messages
5
Likes
3
Someone spends dyzzing money for cables and other hifi voodoo, however I am into tube rolling. It is like fine tuning of "musical tool" and my subjective result is immediately audible. Piece in music!
 

Poultrygeist

Active Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2018
Messages
270
Likes
231
Someone spends dyzzing money for cables and other hifi voodoo, however I am into tube rolling. It is like fine tuning of "musical tool" and my subjective result is immediately audible. Piece in music!
Except for the spelling of peace I couldn't agree more.
 

beefkabob

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Apr 18, 2019
Messages
1,636
Likes
2,073
Thank you. I believe in my ears. Why some amplifiers sound differently when their frequency measure is very or even the same?;)
I believe your ears exist, too. As for your experience, it's called psychoacoustics.
Kind of a harsh intro to ASR…

My take would be that without measurements, no one can be sure that what you heard was repeatable or objective. More words, but a bit less edgy.
Best to just rip the bandaid off. I also welcomed them. Also Amir's measurements in the article clearly put the nails in this savior.
Someone spends dyzzing money for cables and other hifi voodoo, however I am into tube rolling. It is like fine tuning of "musical tool" and my subjective result is immediately audible. Piece in music!
Is it audible? Not likely unless you swap broken tubes for working tubes. As Amir describes, you get the "rolling placebo" effect. Yes, swapping cables and other such are hifi voodoo, but so is rolling rubes. Er, I mean rolling tubes.
Except for the spelling of peace I couldn't agree more.
it's the Audio Fantasy Revue.
 

srkbear

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 16, 2021
Messages
1,029
Likes
1,445
Location
Dallas, TX
I realized I missed this bit - my understanding comes from guitar amps, where the 12AX7 is used pretty much ubiquitously. There are probably two dozen different physical designs of 12AX7, and they all sound a little different when driven into clipping. Again - not major, like... at all (very difficult to pick out, even sighted, it's not "night and day" nonsense at all), but definitely there.

The biggest differences though are between tubes that meet spec and those that don't. "This tube sounds anemic!" = something in the construction of that particular tube is off so it doesn't meet spec. Within reasonable (20%) tolerances, even the most golden ear type would be hard pressed to hear a difference.

When they're run in their linear region, they're all exactly the damn same.
I brought up this distinction between guitar amps, where tubes are being driven way out of their rated operating ranges, vs Hi-Fi applications when they are not. There was some lively debate, mostly arguing against my hypothesis that any differences would be logically expected, from members here for whom I have great respect and who are far more experienced in valve science than I.

Then I went on a search and destroy mission looking for any robust data on this lore, as I too have a large collection of NOS tubes that I’ve employed in the Fender Tweed replicas I occasionally build as a hobby—chosen based on decades of praise from eminent artists, producers, manufactures and audio engineers. And what I found in my literature review is that no one appears to have put this question to any serious, objective analysis (shockingly). It made me question whether this gargantuan tube industry amongst guitar enthusiasts may be entirely based on mythological antidotes.

But for the sake of my own enjoyment mucking around with different tubes, and for whatever benefits I either legitimately or phantasmagorically hear, I’ve chosen to keep the hypothesis alive until someone can devise a methodology to legitimately measure the sonic nuances in tone, compression and response between a new Electro Harmonix cheapie and a high dollar NOS Telefunken or Mullard when they’re overdriven to the stratosphere. Otherwise, I’m a firm believer in cognitive bias and evidence based measurements for all audiophile components. That’s just me…
 

tomelex

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 29, 2016
Messages
990
Likes
572
Location
So called Midwest, USA
Thank you. I believe in my ears. Why some amplifiers sound differently when their frequency measure is very or even the same?;)

Hi, yeah I am OK with your fun of tube rolling and hearing different things, which is not really a remarkable thing that you can hear changes in your gear.

However, you DO realize that there are a whole lot more measurements needed for comparison purposes, not just FR being the same, I hope! If you do not then perhaps you should study more information all over the internet about measurements of audio gear. Take a look at Stereophile or other magazines that have measurements, they are not exhaustive, but very revealing. Stereo is a system, the electronics, the transducers, the room, your ears and brain. It is complex.
 

piczus

Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2022
Messages
5
Likes
3
Hi, yeah I am OK with your fun of tube rolling and hearing different things, which is not really a remarkable thing that you can hear changes in your gear.

However, you DO realize that there are a whole lot more measurements needed for comparison purposes, not just FR being the same, I hope! If you do not then perhaps you should study more information all over the internet about measurements of audio gear. Take a look at Stereophile or other magazines that have measurements, they are not exhaustive, but very revealing. Stereo is a system, the electronics, the transducers, the room, your ears and brain. It is complex.
Ok, everyone is warmly welcomed at my home with respective measurements :).
 

tomelex

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 29, 2016
Messages
990
Likes
572
Location
So called Midwest, USA
Ok, everyone is warmly welcomed at my home with respective measurements :).

Maybe you did not understand, I do believe that you can hear differences. But the reasons you can and the science behind it is complex, and your remark about FR shows you do not understand why in the least. This is a technical forum mostly. The answer to the OP is yes, tube rolling makes a difference, but the technical reasons are there why it does, and it is not some mystery or magic.

I can swap out a power tube at your house with the same brand and you will not hear a difference but the measurements will show a difference, subtle, but there will be one, no two tubes are the same exactly. So you can not always hear the change, you are a human being, with limits in hearing abilities. If you are young with good ears, you can hear things I can no longer hear, so enjoy what you hear!
 
Last edited:

piczus

Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2022
Messages
5
Likes
3
I got it, sorry for spamming of the thread. I am also interested in tube rolling background however I am not able to contribute from technical point of view.
 

tomelex

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 29, 2016
Messages
990
Likes
572
Location
So called Midwest, USA
I brought up this distinction between guitar amps, where tubes are being driven way out of their rated operating ranges, vs Hi-Fi applications when they are not. There was some lively debate, mostly arguing against my hypothesis that any differences would be logically expected, from members here for whom I have great respect and who are far more experienced in valve science than I.

Then I went on a search and destroy mission looking for any robust data on this lore, as I too have a large collection of NOS tubes that I’ve employed in the Fender Tweed replicas I occasionally build as a hobby—chosen based on decades of praise from eminent artists, producers, manufactures and audio engineers. And what I found in my literature review is that no one appears to have put this question to any serious, objective analysis (shockingly). It made me question whether this gargantuan tube industry amongst guitar enthusiasts may be entirely based on mythological antidotes.

But for the sake of my own enjoyment mucking around with different tubes, and for whatever benefits I either legitimately or phantasmagorically hear, I’ve chosen to keep the hypothesis alive until someone can devise a methodology to legitimately measure the sonic nuances in tone, compression and response between a new Electro Harmonix cheapie and a high dollar NOS Telefunken or Mullard when they’re overdriven to the stratosphere. Otherwise, I’m a firm believer in cognitive bias and evidence based measurements for all audiophile components. That’s just me…

It is called an FFT, Amir does them all the time. This will show up a lot of what the differences are, not all but most all. I love that word phantasmagorically, dude!
 

beefkabob

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Apr 18, 2019
Messages
1,636
Likes
2,073
I honestly don't believe there are significant audible differences, or usually any audible differences, when rolling tubes with the same specs. Look at the measurements in the first post. It doesn't lock the door on things, but the door is pretty closed. I suppose there could be some super clean measuring tub amp out there where more measurements could be done, but even the cleanest tube amps aren't clean. They're just different grades of audibly distorted.

Which isn't to crap on the fun of swapping parts, but it is to crap on the thought that your ears are good testers of all this.
 

SIY

Grand Contributor
Technical Expert
Joined
Apr 6, 2018
Messages
10,383
Likes
24,749
Location
Alfred, NY
I suppose there could be some super clean measuring tub amp out there where more measurements could be done, but even the cleanest tube amps aren't clean. They're just different grades of audibly distorted.
There are lots of tube amps which are not "audibly distorted." As @levimax (for example) found when he did blinded comparisons with a Stereo 70.
 

Strumbringer

Active Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2021
Messages
117
Likes
88
Location
Washington, DC, USA
Wish there was a way to do this sort of scientific testing with tube rolling on guitar amps. I really want to know if these insanely pricey Mullard and Amperex tubes should command the premiums they do.
 

Jim Shaw

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 16, 2021
Messages
616
Likes
1,159
Location
North central USA
Sure tube rolling makes a difference. It's like changing the justices on the US Supreme Court; it would make a difference. Or changing ingredients in a complex recipe: it can make a difference. :)
 

_thelaughingman

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 1, 2020
Messages
1,324
Likes
1,943
Sure tube rolling makes a difference. It's like changing the justices on the US Supreme Court; it would make a difference. Or changing ingredients in a complex recipe: it can make a difference. :)
Damn Jim, just cut that with a scythe. :p:p
 

Jim Shaw

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 16, 2021
Messages
616
Likes
1,159
Location
North central USA

srkbear

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 16, 2021
Messages
1,029
Likes
1,445
Location
Dallas, TX
It is called an FFT, Amir does them all the time. This will show up a lot of what the differences are, not all but most all. I love that word phantasmagorically, dude!
Thanks boss! Remnants of my useless English major degree.

I’m aware of FFT testing—I’m just not sure how the subjective “assets” of what has historically defined a great guitar amp tube “tone”, “character”, or “responsiveness” could be qualified as objective endpoints to subject to comparative analysis.

Most guitarists who are tube enthusiasts invoke extremely intangible or even vague characteristics that they deem aspirational in revered NOS tubes, such as Genalex, Telefunken or Mullard lots. They (I’m somewhat disingenuously omitting myself) speak of dynamic nuances in how the tube “responds” in terms of compression, harmonics and sustain that are largely evaluated subjectively during the process of actually playing the guitar. I wouldn’t have a clue how to subject these phenomena to objective variables suitable to ABX testing.

To be honest, this whole topic is causing me a bit of a cognitive crisis—because although I‘ve spoken of these concepts from a guitar amp perspective as accepted dogma for so long, the more I talk about them from a skeptical audiophile standpoint the more it sounds like nonsense to me!

The question is, if someone could perform a definitive study that would discredit the whole guitarist’s holy grail tube industry, would we be able to convince Joe Walsh or Brian May or Eric Clapton?
 
Top Bottom