• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required as is 20 years of participation in forums (not all true). There are daily reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Tube gear section.

Do you want a tube gear section ?


  • Total voters
    66

Zoomer

Active Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2019
Messages
274
Likes
410
Obviously not :)
As I quoted "I don't mind if others want one". And I don't object to discussing superstitions and obsolete technologies on a science forum perse, but for me ASR is more about SOTA tech and sound quality and not so much hard core DIY.
 

Doodski

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Dec 9, 2019
Messages
14,905
Likes
14,619
Location
Canada
Obviously not :)
As I quoted "I don't mind if others want one". And I don't object to discussing superstitions and obsolete technologies on a science forum perse, but for me ASR is more about SOTA tech and sound quality and not so much hard core DIY.
After ~45 years of following audio stuff I'm going to walk the plank and say that tubes should be a topic @ ASR. It makes little sense but it's not supposed to in a objective manner but as I mentioned the peeps into tubes and such are far reaching and interesting and some are into advanced electronics stuff as a daily situation and employment. To cut them out is crazy talk. CraZY!!! :facepalm:
 

fpitas

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 7, 2022
Messages
1,937
Likes
2,172
Location
Northern Virginia, USA
After ~45 years of following audio stuff I'm going to walk the plank and say that tubes should be a topic @ ASR. It makes little sense but it's not supposed to in a objective manner but as I mentioned the peeps into tubes and such are far reaching and interesting and some are into advanced electronics stuff as a daily situation and employment. To cut them out is crazy talk. CraZY!!! :facepalm:
And eventually, maybe, we'd find out if tube amps do offer anything in certain circumstances. You certainly won't find that out on the regular audiophile forums.
 

Holmz

Major Contributor
Joined
Oct 3, 2021
Messages
1,474
Likes
861
Location
Australia
Those that say that we know tubes are inferior, seem to be making a statement without a lot of evidence or proof.

There is something that is a bit one-eyed in reporting SINAD as the end all, be all, number.

To me, hiss is more distressing than a bit of distortion.
And to me sibilance is pretty distressing.
It would be nice to see something about “N” (noise) independent of THD.
And then the type of distortion may be more important than the level of distortion.

^These^ topics seem to be “science”, at least in terms of psychoacoustics.

Lastly, there is a lot of gnashing of teeth over a 100dB SINAD device and 110 or 120 dB device. But the speakers often have distortion that is only -60 dB down and rising higher and higher.
What do we get when we add a 110dB SINAD amp to -60dB speaker?, is that a lot different than say an 85dB SINAD amp and a state of the art driver which has harmonics at > -60dB?

Why do the amps and other electronics even matter when the speakers are the dominate thing in the system?
And why do SS and Tube equipment seem to sound different, and often able to be indentified in ABX tests?

Is understanding this not also science?
 

melvinjames

Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 1, 2022
Messages
51
Likes
52
I’d like to see a dedicated section. Why not? Are we not here to learn and share our experiences? There’s plenty of us who enjoy tubes for what they bring to the mix. Distortion, yes. Deviation from neutral/transparent, yes. All well known, of course, and yet there’s still a lot of interest in tubes. How many times have you seen a question about adding a bit of tube magic to some great-measuring gear? I see it all the time in every forum I visit and ASR could be the perfect non-bs forum for such discussions.
 

Jim Taylor

Major Contributor
Joined
Oct 22, 2020
Messages
1,380
Likes
2,952
How many times have you seen a question about adding a bit of tube magic to some great-measuring gear? I see it all the time in every forum I visit and ASR could be the perfect non-bs forum for such discussions.

You are correct; ASR is a non-b.s. forum. "Adding a bit of tube magic" - or any other sort of "magic" - is definitely b.s., and therefore incompatible.

From what I can see, the people here who are against adding a tube forum are not against tubes per se. They are against ideas that are not logical, regimens that are undisciplined and any manifesto that rejects scientific examination. You are correct about the fact that you "see it all the time in every forum". Many people see this forum as a haven of reason against the ever-present "magic" that pervades those other forums, and it's the reason that they're here and not there.

If you could devise a method of filtering that sort of b.s. out, I believe most people here would welcome a tube forum.

Jim
 
Last edited:

rgpit

Active Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 29, 2019
Messages
141
Likes
257
Location
Colorado Springs, CO
Is this "Audio Science" or "What's The Best"? There is an historic place for tubes in audio science.
 

DMill

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 9, 2022
Messages
534
Likes
665
I voted yes as an owner of a tube amp. I would expect the same rigors when discussing tubes here that we objectively talk about with any other piece of gear. I think they can be measured and compared with other tube amps, and issues or problems diagnosed in logical way just like we do with all other gear. I would have the same scrutiny for someone posting “I swapped in this tube and veils were lifted” as I do with any other piece of gear and politely remind the person to prove it out if that’s their belief.
 

fpitas

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 7, 2022
Messages
1,937
Likes
2,172
Location
Northern Virginia, USA
I voted yes as an owner of a tube amp. I would expect the same rigors when discussing tubes here that we objectively talk about with any other piece of gear. I think they can be measured and compared with other tube amps, and issues or problems diagnosed in logical way just like we do with all other gear. I would have the same scrutiny for someone posting “I swapped in this tube and veils were lifted” as I do with any other piece of gear and politely remind the person to prove it out if that’s their belief.
That's what I hope it will be. If someone is set (heh!) on buying a tube amp, they have few other legitimate places to turn for measurements and intelligent critique.
 

egellings

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 6, 2020
Messages
2,211
Likes
1,665
I do not see a problem with tube rolling so long as a tube is changed only when the equipment is powered down, and in the case of 9-pin tubes like 12AX7, the tube makes a trip through a pin straightener first. For octal based tubes, grab the tube only by the base and gently rock it while pulling upward on the tube's base. Socket quality can also make a difference; the cheap phenolic ones that are riveted together may not survive as many changes as higher quality sockets can. I suspect that in circuits using corrective negative feedback, tube rolling may make little or no difference at all, whereas in non-feedback circuits, that differences may show up.
 

tonycollinet

Major Contributor
Joined
Sep 4, 2021
Messages
3,160
Likes
4,723
Location
UK/Cheshire
Ok - in spite of what I wrote above, I have now voted yes, to counter all the "tubes are anathema to science" bullshit.

No, they are not. Understanding the science of tube based devices - how they perform, how they measure, and how that might interplay with psychoacoustics is absolutely a part of what ASR should be about.

It doesn't need to be all about perfect flat transparency.
 

Doodski

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Dec 9, 2019
Messages
14,905
Likes
14,619
Location
Canada
Ok - in spite of what I wrote above, I have now voted yes, to counter all the "tubes are anathema to science" bullshit.

No, they are not. Understanding the science of tube based devices - how they perform, how they measure, and how that might interplay with psychoacoustics is absolutely a part of what ASR should be about.

It doesn't need to be all about perfect flat transparency.
Some here approach the situation as if it is a cross-contamination instead of a cross-pollination opportunity for ideas.
 

fpitas

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 7, 2022
Messages
1,937
Likes
2,172
Location
Northern Virginia, USA
Some here approach the situation as if it is a cross-contamination instead of a cross-pollination opportunity for ideas.
Right? As if we'll catch tubeitis :D
 

Timcognito

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 28, 2021
Messages
1,201
Likes
5,138
Location
NorCal
Kind of the Dumb Blond of the tube world, may appeal to the solid state guys
1663442485436.jpeg
 

MattHooper

Major Contributor
Joined
Jan 27, 2019
Messages
4,031
Likes
6,381
You are correct; ASR is a non-b.s. forum. "Adding a bit of tube magic" - or any other sort of "magic" - is definitely b.s., and therefore incompatible.

From what I can see, the people here who are against adding a tube forum are not against tubes per se. They are against ideas that are not logical, regimens that are undisciplined and any manifesto that rejects scientific examination. You are correct about the fact that you "see it all the time in every forum". Many people see this forum as a haven of reason against the ever-present "magic" that pervades those other forums, and it's the reason that they're here and not there.

If you could devise a method of filtering that sort of b.s. out, I believe most people here would welcome a tube forum.

Jim

Jim, I'm pretty sure melvinjames didn't mean real "magic."

He pretty much expressed what you just said :)
 

Jim Taylor

Major Contributor
Joined
Oct 22, 2020
Messages
1,380
Likes
2,952
Jim, I'm pretty sure melvinjames ..... pretty much expressed what you just said :)

Oops. :facepalm: Jim

p.s. - I know that he wasn't referring to real magic, Matt. But I misunderstood the direction of his comments.
 
Last edited:

egellings

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 6, 2020
Messages
2,211
Likes
1,665
With a disclaimer about not being responsible for stuff if bad stuff happens.
That would be true of any DIY project that could go awry. Errors will happen. Of course, with tubes there are lethal voltages to be concerned about.
 

mhardy6647

Master Contributor
Joined
Dec 12, 2019
Messages
6,691
Likes
13,816
That would be true of any DIY project that could go awry. Errors will happen. Of course, with tubes there are lethal voltages to be concerned about.
I.e., a self-limiting problem.
Natural selection is not pretty.

:cool:
 

GXAlan

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 15, 2020
Messages
1,369
Likes
2,169
Is this "Audio Science" or "What's The Best"? There is an historic place for tubes in audio science.

It’s ASR.

ST-70 Series 3
50 milliwatt
SNR 81.2 dB
THD 0.008% (-81.9 dB)
SINAD 78.5 dB

AHB2
50 milliwatt
SNR 92 dB
THD 0.024% (-72.4 dB)
SINAD 72.3 dB

I am not saying that the AHB2 is worse than a tube amp but I would not have believed that there were any conditions where a tube amp could beat an AHB2 on measurements until the science was done.

Revel PerformaBe F328Be @ 50 mW80.3 dB at 5 ft
70.8 dB at 15 ft
 

GXAlan

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 15, 2020
Messages
1,369
Likes
2,169

Vindicated! I've been saying before I had the data that my SFS-80 actually sounds really clean for a tube amp. Finally got the setup measured.
@MattHooper @B&WTube
 
Top Bottom