Tube gear opinions

[Deleted member 31473]

I know this may be a bit of an ambitious second post LOL. But I would like to know different perspectives about tube gear. I do not own any tube amplifiers, but I own a tube phono preamp, that I also use as a buffer between my DAC and preamp through its auxiliary input. I also own a custom made tube preamp that was built by a company some may have heard of online. It is packed full of a lot of good parts, a lot of modern parts mixed with NOS tubes.

I have heard our host talk about this, I just can’t recall where, maybe it was in one of his online interviews.

I’d like to know what your opinion of the warm sound that we here?

What makes it sound so different than our SS gear, or better yet what is that warm sound that we hear?

 

[Deleted member 31473]

This is my opinion:

You said, " .... we hear ....". No one can be sure that they hear what you hear, the way you hear it. That's the trap of subjectivity alone. So when you say "warm sound", a hundred other people may have a hundred different impressions of what "warm sound" is. Add to that the fact that those hundred may have a hundred different value opinions of "warm", and you can see that we easily enter a swamp.

The fact that a mechanism, electronic or otherwise, is "packed full of a lot of good parts" doesn't necessarily mean anything. Circuit design, driven by professional capability, determines whether something electronic works well. The best parts in the world, assembled into an incompetent circuit, gives one only a poor, incompetent mechanism.

Lastly, one thing: If you like what you have, then it's good. That's what we all want. We want something we like, that gives us pleasure, that we enjoy. It makes no difference what type of equipment it is. All that matters is that you find satisfaction.

The trouble arises when you find satisfaction, and then tell the rest of the world that they should find satisfaction in the same things that you do. Evangelizing like that usually goes nowhere except into arguments. That's why you'll notice that Amir gives us facts and figures in his reviews, and draws comparisons to other gear, but does not proselytize.

You can view the facts and figures and draw your own conclusions, which is the way it should be.

I hope you enjoy your equipment and the music it plays. Jim Taylor

Thank you I appreciate your opinion.

You pretty much shot down everything I said but that’s fine, and my post was not meant to enter a swamp, and I merely mentioned that I have some tube gear with goodies inside.

So if I play by your rules I’ll be fine? Give me a break.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

Its really a preference thing - some people, myself included, simply like the look and interactive feel of tubes. Tubes are obviously more maintenance than SS, and consume more power. That doesn't matter squat to me but YMMV. If you have power hungry speakers, especially ones which present a difficult load, SS is a better option.

Given easier to drive and more efficient speakers, you might hear a sound quality difference between tubes and SS, especially at higher volumes. I don't subscribe to the 'warmth' thing at all; a good tube amp should sound pretty much identical to a SS one in their normal power ranges. If they do sound obviously different, then something is wrong with one of them.

 

[egellings]

I can't imagine why a properly designed tube line stage can't sound the same as a good S.S. one. If they're both flat, low distortion and low in noise, and not driven into distortion, they should be identical. It's ain't that hard to bang out maybe 2Vrms into a 10K or so load with either technology. Power amps are a different story because the output tubes are saddled with an output transformer, and OTLs are not considered because of their rarity and drinking problem with the juice.

 

[mhardy6647]

I know this may be a bit of an ambitious second post LOL. But I would like to know different perspectives about tube gear. I do not own any tube amplifiers, but I own a tube phono preamp, that I also use as a buffer between my DAC and preamp through its auxiliary input. I also own a custom made tube preamp that was built by a company some may have heard of online. It is packed full of a lot of good parts, a lot of modern parts mixed with NOS tubes.

I have heard our host talk about this, I just can’t recall where, maybe it was in one of his online interviews.

I’d like to know what your opinion of the warm sound that we here?

"What makes it sound so different than our SS gear, or better yet what is that warm sound that we hear?"

"What makes it sound so different than our SS gear, or better yet what is that warm sound that we hear?"

No idea. I like vacuum tube amplification and use it (mostly) when I am listening "seriously". I don't think of it as warm; I do think of it as accurate (in terms of linearity of amplification). Truth be told, I think my incremental enjoyment or appreciation is driven by two things. First is the relative simplicity (and relative ancient-ness) of the "technology" -- in my case single-ended power amplifiers using direct-heated triode power output tubes after one stage of voltage amplification -- relative to the output. I equate the simplicity with elegance. To me, PWM amplifiers, e.g., are the polar opposite of a two stage SET amplifier in terms of simplicity and elegance. EDIT: That's in no way to say that they don't, or can't, sound good!

The other criterion that appeals to me, I think, is what I like to call the cult of the arcane.

N.B. These are just my opinions.

DSC_0132 by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

EDIT: Apologies for the multitude of edits I've made to this little post! Most of them were typographic!

 

[Wes]

usually distortion products account for the sound difference

Nelson Pass has some amps that are very carefully tuned for this euphonic sound

 

[egellings]

Tube amps likely appeal to visual as well as audio sensibilities, what with all the glass & glow, whereas S.S. gear lacks that visual component, even when it usually performs better electronically. This may have more effect on listeners who do not have a TV screen staring at them when sitting in the listening chair, like me. When I tube out, it's 12AX7, EL34, KT88 and similar. The effect is especially good at night.

 

[richard12511]

I’d like to know what your opinion of the warm sound that we here?

What makes it sound so different than our SS gear, or better yet what is that warm sound that we hear?

I'd bet the vast majority of that "warmth" comes from the fact that your brain knows that other people say that tubes are warm. I think we vastly underestimate just how much our brain alters the sound, and we assume are ears far better than they actually are.

Not to say there aren't tubes out there with enough distortion to be audible, but even then it should be a very subtle effect. Something you have to try really hard to hear, and have the ability to quickly switch and back and forth. Without targeted distortion audibility training, I honestly doubt most people could pick most tubes out under blind conditions with switch times of more than 8 seconds or so.

I could be wrong, though, and I'm sure I am for some tube's with ridiculously high(think loudspeaker) levels of distortion. I'd like to see more tubes measured here. If it turns out the distortion is only 40dB down, then that could definitely change my mind .

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

Welcome. You're in a forum bent on Science and high performance gears. The Science pretty much says that what you get with tubes is objectively inferior to what you get from SS gear, even from some stupendously inexpensive gears, e.g the Apple dongle which at $9.00 was clearly superior o a $15,000 tube DAC. What is more interesting or disheartening, a matter of perspective, is what you hear on Tube, the warmth (If it is truly there because some time it's not ...another can of worm ...), the organic sound and ...(plug any adjective/hyperbole, here) can be replicated, again by, you guessed it, inexpensive software or SS parts... You can even dialed them in from some software.
On the other side some people have made an industry of peddling the "sound good" mantra and it is a difficult matter to cover without going way off topics. An ecosystem based on subjective evaluations and mostly opinions... I come from this world , myself ; here they are not too tolerant about that , they (we) prefer objective, repeatable, measurable proofs.
So I am not sure here is the place you will find many answers about tubes. I would suggest that you stay, learn and re-calibrate your brain. You will be glad you did. Speaking from experience. I have been in the hobby for more than 50 years. My system has never sounded better. It also measures better. My current system by any objective metrics, is more full range than my last while costing what I would have paid for a speaker cable17 years ago... True story !
Stay , Learn... The level of knowledge is high here.

 

[Jim Matthews]

I've done both.

I would suggest that the hallmark of what is loosely called "tube sound" may be attributed to limited Global Negative Feedback.

I have heard some lower power transistor amps which had similar "character" but they were terribly expensive. The Pass Aleph 0 sounded great and similar to well made tube amps of the day.

It's my opinion that the best tube amps have genuine triode output stages, limited global negative feedback and heavy iron transformers.

Such designs restrict loudspeaker choices to only the most efficient designs.

 

[richard12511]

Something interesting that came up recently in a recent interview with Earl Geddes was just how strong the masking effect is for 2nd and 3rd harmonic distortion, and it gets better as volume increases.

From what I understand, most tube distortion is 2nd harmonic? If that's true, then it would have to be especially high to overcome the masking effect. Dr. Geddes talked about some audibility tests they did where 2nd harmonic distortion was inaudible up to like 20%.

We know that the brain hugely affects the sound we hear. It's effect is larger than even the loudspeakers, and swamps any small distortion differences between electronics. Occam's razor to me suggests that the brain is the most likely culprit, though there could be other contributors.

 

[levimax]

I have both and while tube amps are fun they are lower power and generate a lot of heat and the tubes wear out. I went to a lot of trouble to set up a double blind ABX level matched test between a Dynaco ST 70 and a Neurochrome Mod 86 amp and could not tell them apart ... I would highly recomend you try this yourself as it will really open your eyes and set you free from a lot of BS surrounding the hobby.

 

[JuliaCoder]

How much do you like fussing with your gear? With tubes, you can worry about, heat, fingerprints, replacing them, if there's expensive New Old Stock somewhere that's said to sound better, warmup time, children or pets getting burned by or breaking them. Transistors don't give you any of this user engagement.

 

[Jim Matthews]

How much do you like fussing with your gear? Transistors don't give you any of this user engagement.

It's worse than that... you might find yourself concentrating on music, recording technique and resolution.

 

[egellings]

I went for good electrical accuracy in my home made tube amplification chain so I don't notice any warmth to the sound at all. I can see where the warmth effect would happen with the SE 300B crowd, but that's not my cuppa tea. So why bother with tubes if there's no real difference? To me, I made them and am pleased with the sound, they look pleasing to my eye, and they are sort of like pets where I minister to them (complete with genuflections!) by cleaning my glass and adjusting the standing plate current for each of the 8 tubes (4 per channel) every so often. And, they have no right to sound that good. In short, they're pets, my little Fi-fi, and they tickle my nun-handles just right.

 

[Helicopter]

I love tubes because they look cool, and you can get really old ones, foreign military ones, etc. They can be a lot of fun.

The sound has more to do with the design than the use of tubes, but tube designs are more often voiced in one way or another, so you might hear something special. I would say my Darkvoice 336SE OTL tube headphone amp improves the frequency response of Sennheiser HD6XX a bit, for example. On the other hand, the Schiit Freya+ tube preamp is likely audibly transparent, especially with music playing loud enough to hide the already low noise floor.

@MakeMineVinyl is right, tube gear may need to be matched to speakers that present a proper electronic load. I learned this the hard way, and my big fancy amp is currently idle because my speakers play nicer with a 10% as expensive SS amp.

"What makes it sound so different than our SS gear, or better yet what is that warm sound that we hear?"

No idea. I like vacuum tube amplification and use it (mostly) when I am listening "seriously". I don't think of it as warm; I do think of it as accurate (in terms of linearity of amplification). Truth be told, I think my incremental enjoyment or appreciation is driven by two things. First is the relative simplicity (and relative ancient-ness) of the "technology" -- in my case single-ended power amplifiers using direct-heated triode power output tubes after one stage of voltage amplification -- relative to the output. I equate the simplicity with elegance. To me, PWM amplifiers, e.g., are the polar opposite of a two stage SET amplifier in terms of simplicity and elegance. EDIT: That's in no way to say that they don't, or can't, sound good!

The other criterion that appeals to me, I think, is what I like to call the cult of the arcane.

N.B. These are just my opinions.

DSC_0132 by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

EDIT: Apologies for the multitude of edits I've made to this little post! Most of them were typographic!

Those directly heated triodes are so lovely. Did you say they are Fullmusic 2A3s? I know I asked before.

If I find a deal on some better loaded speakers, I might try Fullmusic 300Bs. I have been eyeing the Focal Flax Dome, with what I would call 16 ohm impedance, but I only see them for like $700 eaxh, which seems high for little things like that. If the Aria 906 go on sale again, I might try them too, at more like 4 ohm. I got sick of my Klipsch HBRs for now, and want to find something more transparent that still has good loading... or if I ever get to it, make cabinets for my BOFUs or some 16 ohm full range Faital speakers I also have new in boxes in the basement.

 

[JustJones]

You mention tube preamp and phono preamp. I heard for years in order to "tame" the SS harshness use a tube pre with SS amps. I tried it and couldn't tell a difference of course I was given the usual, not revealing enough system and lousy ears. Tubes are nice to look at but my system is all active speakers now. It wasn't a blind or level matched test.

 

[mhardy6647]

Those directly heated triodes are so lovely. Did you say they are Fullmusic 2A3s? I know I asked before.

Those are branded "Sofia" but I am pretty sure they're sold under numerous, perhaps myriad other brand names.
They actually sound quite good; very robust (probably because, as I understand it, they're essentially 300Bs with 2.5 V filaments).

 

[egellings]

Tube sound perception definitely is a psychological effect, based on bias (mine, not the control grids'). Some people like snakes for pets, but for me those long tubes are a definite nope. To each his own. Where I would draw the line is saying that so-called tube sound is better (i.e. more accurate) than S.S. sound, and Audio Precision equipment cannot verify that. As an engineer, I know better. The AP will definitely get it right. The tubes just err in a euphonic way and I find it pleasant. I just don't want the effect gooped on too thick, however. My particular copies would acquit themselves reasonably well on the AP test system, although they are no Benchmark A2H2, either.

 

[egellings]

"Warmth" is a euphonic effect cause by mostly 2nd harmonic distortion. It's like real whipped cream on your pumpkin pie. A little can be good, but it doesn't take much to overdo it.