Trying to understand the turntable/vinyl world...

[JP]

Elliptical makes more contact with the grooves though, so it can theoretically bring out more detail. Microlinear is just a slab of nude diamond shafted with glue on the cantilever, and it can go even further in the groove, theoretically bringing out even more detail.

All else being equal, ‘depth in the groove’ has diddly to do with it.

 

[levimax]

Thanks for the advice...

Actually, my TT lacks VTA... So I guess Im very limited as to which carts I can try... (Probably will need to play with mats...)

VTA is not that crazy sensitive.... use shims or a matt if you need to get it right on a "regular" thickness record and 180 gram or dynaflex will play fine.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

Minute pieces of paper (from the original record sleeve) in the grove can get you when you us an ML. Great reason to use a record cleaning machine (mine is hand crank driven) and a record cleaning brush before playing the record.

I always use a cleaning brush before every play. My turntable also has an acrylic dust cover which is always in place. I've always kept my records in their sleeves and in a dust free space, so I've never had to use any further cleaning methods. Also, I've replaced all the paper record sleeves with poly lined ones. There are records I have from the 70s which I know so well that I can say 'there goes that one click which has always been there from when the record was new', and there is no further noise I've noticed. So yes, record noise and clicks/pops are not a given if simple precautions are followed. I've had friends who clean their records with a machine before every play - I believe that's massive overkill and more likely to cause damage than anything else.

 

[skymusic20]

I disagree strongly with Steve Guttenberg pretty much always, but I do like his latest video on Why You Shouldn't Get Into Vinyl. Some good points.

Can not find that video... I have watched several of his videos, he is entertaining... I can not say I agree or disagree with him because I lack the knowledge and/or experience to understand everything he says but it is fun to watch.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

Can not find that video... I have watched several of his videos, he is entertaining... I can not say I agree or disagree with him because I lack the knowledge and/or experience to understand everything he says but it is fun to watch.

I think the video is from last week or the week before. At any rate, its a recent one.

This is it.

 

[dougi]

Like pretty much everything with TT's "it depends" is more accurate than more definitive statements. Regarding the microlinear stylus on a AT 33ptg2 I recently got I would say in general it plays my older damaged records better than anything else I have tried. Sometimes the smaller microlinear stylus will ride lower in the groove in an "undamaged area" and an old damaged record can sound much better. Other times on a different record not so much. Also I had a Denon 103R with a conical stylus which lacked nothing in sound quality. To me the big issue with a conical stylus is that they only last 200 hours or so vs 1,000 hours for a microlinear. The biggest advantage of conical is that set up is not critical especially VTA where as microlinear needs VTA correct to work best. There is no end to the things you can try but make sure the compliance of the cart you chose matches the compliance of the tone arm and go from there.

I find, since going to a microlinear (AT VM540ML) from an elliptical (Clearaudio Aurum Beta S or Dynavector DV20XL) it can play older records better sometimes. However, on new vinyl, I find it digs up vinyl swarf from the grooves sometimes, despite carbon brush clearing before every side. You can easily tell, it sits on the stylus and you get awful distortion. I never had that with elliptical.

 

[dlaloum]

Conicals stay on the groove better and thus are a good choice for very worn or dirty records (a better solution for those is to clean them ), so you're right. DJs also universally use conical because of this "feature", as is explained by the creator himself here:

Spoiler

Elliptical makes more contact with the grooves though, so it can theoretically bring out more detail. Microlinear is just a slab of nude diamond shafted with glue on the cantilever, and it can go even further in the groove, theoretically bringing out even more detail. But that is where diminishing returns kicks in hard and you don't hear such a substantial upgrade. When thinking of microlinear against elliptical, it's better to think in terms of better tracking (better alignment, less distortion) and much higher life expectancy: the AT95ML lasts three VM95Es, so you definitely get your moneys worth. In detail, youtube comparisons today are very nice and may show to you that the actual sound quality result, outside of IGD, is really splitting hairs and placebo-land.

Spoiler

But also yes, after I upgraded to the ML I had to keep my records more pristine than before, and still refrain from using it on trashy worn or recicled vinyl: it just won't play right, sounding sibilant or outright skipping.

Not quite true - due to Line Contact styli having a vertically extended contact patch, they spread the mass of the tracking force over a contact patch with increased surface area (tall but narrow) resulting in reduced record wear and tear.

They also have a horizontally narrower tracking patch - meaning they track high frequencies better (they were originally designed for Quad, which needed decent bandwidth out to 40kHz).

Downsides - if you get VTA too far out of line, it will smear as the contact patch will no longer be vertical. - Elipticals can be very good indeed, and are much much less sensitive to VTA (but have increased record wear/tear... ) - and conical tips are even less VTA sensitive - but much more frequency constrained.

 

[dlaloum]

Basically - vinyl is much more complicated to get right than digital.

You have a sprung system that is highly sensitive to vibrations - the arm/cartridge/cantilever is subject to low frequency resonances - hence sensitive to things like footfalls, that the suspension resonance will accentuate. - some turntables use suspension of the entire system to try to isolate it from outside LF and HF vibrations... (platter and base materials are also used to damp/absorb and isolate, but that is primarily HF).

Then there is compliance to arm mass matching.... no it is NOT a black art, it is all calculable.... but it IS complicated.

Early vintage arms were high mass - and needed low compliance cartridges (as the ones of that period were), from the late 70's to the early 90's, audio engineers worked out the many advantages of high compliance cartridge's/cantilever suspension, combined with low mass tonearms, and in the more advanced configurations, low frequency arm damping (achieved with oil, magnetic, or electromagnetic means depending on design).

Then there are the various solutions to tracking error - imposed by the geometry of arms.... longer arms, or linear tracking turntables - and each one solves one problem then introduces a bunch of other engineering issues to overcome.

If you purchase a TT as a turnkey system, with catridge/needle - usually all the matching is done (hopefully correctly!)....

But there are a plethora of highly tempting cartridge upgrades, and the turnkey setups often come with a fairly basic cartridge .... and here be dragons.... getting that cartridge upgrade right, ensuring the sound is indeed an upgrade, requires balancing all the various requirements, getting a cartridge with compliance that properly matches the arm, mounting it right, VTA, getting the right tracking force....

Can TT's sound great - of course they can - but it takes a LOT more work.

(and that isn't even bothering to discuss cleaning vinyl records, and treating records, etc..... yes I have used hand crank baths.... but I also built myself an Ultrasonic cleaner, and for older records, a re-plasticizing and lubricating treatment can work a treat too - ArmorAll....)

Are basic cheapy turntables OK - sure.... and so are basic cheapy CD players.... and I grew up with mum & my grandparents basic cheapy record players.... and my first "HiFi" turntable (Pioneer PL120...) was a revelation (and it was cheap enough for a kid in high school!).

 

[Bob from Florida]

Thanks, you know, AT LP120x comes with an elliptical stylus.
Just tried a conical one. The thing is conical stylus seems to work better for records that are in poor shape. Elliptical is more revealing. I gues Microlinear is even more revealing but then you need to have your records in prefect condition...
Will consider microlinear, seems like a good try...

Conical or spherical styli are least susceptible to alignment errors and VTA makes very little difference. As you move up in stylus profiles - elliptical - shibata - microline - the alignment becomes more critical. You should keep that in mind as you upgrade styli lest your better styli can sound worse. Below is a link to a Mike Fremer article that should help with basic setup.

Analog Corner #109

Not quite a meeting of the minds at Home Entertainment 2004: Michael Fremer (right) explains to Ken Kessler (left) why LPs sound better than CDs. (Photo: John Atkinson) It wasn't exactly heroic or even particularly daring, but has anyone ever attempted to install a phono cartridge while facing a...

www.analogplanet.com

 

[Joe Smith]

I have a number of vintage tables, and I think the AT 120 turntable series is a treat and works just fine. I got one a year or so ago to see how a modern, entry level table would sound. I like the Technics styling without the Technics price. Equipped with the superb and easy AT 95 Microline cartridge, it sounds great in my upstairs system. I miss auto-return, but in this setting it's fine, as I'm right beside it when working in my office.

Being a baby boomer, I do enjoy still playing vinyl, have about 2,000 records and buy perhaps 20-30 a year, mostly jazz. If I was entering audio today, I would not go there. More expensive than it needs to be, for sure, especially now that vinyl is cool again. Probably the best part about the vinyl resurgence is the boom in record stores, meeting face to face, mix of old and new. The blessing and curse of physical media is that it's tangible (and heavy)...a lifetime of loving music and collecting can really "weigh one down".

 

[Godataloss]

Is it really that hard to see why the construction of a decent TT is more than a plastic box cd player?

 

[sergeauckland]

Is it really that hard to see why the construction of a decent TT is more than a plastic box cd player?

A plastic box CD player will in all probability be as good as it needs to be, i.e. as transparent as any expensive player, with the clear exception of perceived build quality.
A turntable needs a very accurate bearing, or rumble and possibly wow will be audible. It needs a silent-running motor, effectively isolated, or again rumble will occur. The turntable itself needs to be accurately machined or wow and flutter become audible.

The arm needs to have very low friction bearings, without any perceptible play. The arm tube needs to be sufficiently rigid to support the cartridge, which is a seismic sensor, properly, but ideally also with some damping to broaden any high Q resonances. The cartridge needs to have very low tip mass, and very accurate orientation of the two generators to avoid excessive crosstalk. The stylus should have a line-contact profile and accurate alignment to avoid both crosstalk and reduce distortion.
The whole turntable system needs to be well isolated, or positive feedback can occur.

All of those can be achieved, but at a considerable cost of production, made worse by the relatively low quantities in which turntables are sold. With very large production quantities, it should be possible to automate much of the mechanical machining effort, but not with current quantities, so production and assembly will be largely precision manual labour.

CD players can be made very cheaply, especially if the transport mechanism is based on a computer optical disc mechanism, although even those now are becoming more rare as fewer computers offer optical drives.

S.

 

[EJ3]

Is it really that hard to see why the construction of a decent TT is more than a plastic box cd player?

Some people have never seen a quality TT & have no idea of what it takes. (Or a quality CD player either, for that matter). A $39.95 CD player doesn't cut it either.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

Some people have never seen a quality TT & have no idea of what it takes. (Or a quality CD player either, for that matter). A $39.95 CD player doesn't cut it either.

Reel to reel or cassette tape machines are in the same boat. CNC machining has made it far easier to make the precision parts for turntables and tape machines which were very labor intensive to build in the past. 3D printing has also made possible short runs of very precise parts at lower cost.

 

[Joe Smith]

For those who love to tweak and adjust, vinyl also has the advantage of a never-ending supply of things to change and A/B. With a given CD deck, not much you can vary. With a cassette deck, you can vary the tape type; if you have a really high end deck, you can dial in the azimuth and other tape path adjustments. But with turntables, there's a lot one can keep playing with - isolation, cartridge/stylus, mats, and the all-important RIAA preamp circuit. Endless variables, for one and one's bank account.

 

[sergeauckland]

Some people have never seen a quality TT & have no idea of what it takes. (Or a quality CD player either, for that matter). A $39.95 CD player doesn't cut it either.

I disagree. I've bought a £15 DVD player which was as good as anything needs to be, to play CDs, and I even bought a very cheap (£5) portable CD player which although quite nasty mechanically, again played CDs as well as they need to be. If you want something that will last 10 years + of daily use, then I accept that won't be a £5-£15 player, but as far as sound quality goes, even these cheap players are Good Enough.

That can't be said for any cheap record player of the Crosley variety, which won't sound even adequate, and the cartridge and stylus will do nothing for record wear.

S.

 

[skymusic20]

... and my first "HiFi" turntable (Pioneer PL120...) was a revelation (and it was cheap enough for a kid in high school!).

That's it.... I wonder why in 2021 it seems a bit hard to find the equivalent of a Pioneer PL120: It is a TT which is cheap enough for a high school student and still sounds good...

 

[skymusic20]

Well, I thought CD players were precision machines as much as a TT are. Maybe Im wrong. Doesn't laser has to be very precisely focused at the right spot while the motor has to spin at constant angular velocity all the time? Maybe CDs being digital media have a lot more room for signal correction and we just don't notice the errors.
I expected that as time passes, technology gets cheaper and cheaper. It doesn't seem to be the case for TT.
I have seen and listened fine, expensive "HiFi" TT and CD players.
But they have always been connected to expensive amps and high end expensive speakers so it is hard (actually impossible) to compare the sound of the source against whatever I have back at home.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

Well, I thought CD players were precision machines as much as a TT are. Maybe Im wrong. Doesn't laser has to be very precisely focused at the right spot while the motor has to spin at constant angular velocity all the time? Maybe CDs being digital media have a lot more room for signal correction and we just don't notice the errors.
I expected that as time passes, technology gets cheaper and cheaper. It doesn't seem to be the case for TT.
I have seen and listened fine, expensive "HiFi" TT and CD players.
But they have always been connected to expensive amps and high end expensive speakers so it is hard (actually impossible) to compare the sound of the source against whatever I have back at home.

CD players are just as 'precision', but the precision is different from that required for older electromechanical gear. CD lasers are typically in a motional feedback loop and there is electronic control via application specific ICs or microcontrollers. The older purely mechanical gear relied on machining precision alone and there were limits to that precision. CNC machining has enabled much higher mechanical precision at a lower cost.

Its really apples vs oranges to a great extent and the 'precision' of the two technologies cannot be directly compared.

 

[Joe Smith]

That's it.... I wonder why in 2021 it seems a bit hard to find the equivalent of a Pioneer PL120: It is a TT which is cheap enough for a high school student and still sounds good...

While I don't like the cheaper AT tables, the current AT102xUSB is a great, simple place to start for a lot of people. I don't use the built in preamp or the USB capability, but those are nice to have. Mine was about $230 shipped new and I think that's pretty affordable. The 95 series cartridges make it very easy to upgrade to nude elliptical or microline styli if desired without having to know much about the detailed alignment/tracking force stuff. The replacement styli for the 95 elliptical (which the table comes with) are about $40-50. I think for today's dollars, the table is a good entry level solution. I like the LOOK of Rega and Pro-Ject tables, but they come at a significant price jump.