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Trying to understand the turntable/vinyl world...

JP

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Finally, after all these years, and in response to a question that exactly no one was asking, the folks at Nagra have decided to sell a record player. You can go to their site and read their pseudo-engineering marketeering spiel. Obviously it'll be top notch, but it got me to thinking about how it all went down, at the marketing and product planning meeting:

Dieter: Ok, I've called this meeting to brainstorm ideas about what can we do to play on our 'heritage', and cash in on the vinyl resurgence. You know, we want to be able to sell something no one else has. Something that will definitely justify the through the roof cost we're going to charge, and at the same time, something having the 'Nagra aura'.

Hans: How about instead of 'regular' belt drive, we add an additional belt-tensioner flywheel thingy? That will make it look like an open reel deck, and we can offer some sort of esoteric engineering claim for, something that will sound believable to Ken, over and Hi Fi News. And we'll ship one to Fremer, over at Stereophile. You know, the guy that just got his whole house wiring upgrade. He'll definitely appreciate that with a good review!

Dieter: Great, thinking. That's what I'm looking for. We'll make the drive system look like an open reel tape recorder. And open reel is about as cool as you can get. Anyone else? Brenner?

Brenner: And of course we'll add a little round meter that measures something. VU? Not sure about that. How about wow and flutter? Or rpm?

Hans: We'll call it the Nagra Modulometer!

Brenner: Umm...er... what's a Modulometer? Isn't that that from a '50s sci-fi movie?

Hans: No. Your thinking about an Interociter. This will be different. And much better. We'll figure out what it does later, tonight at the pub, after work. Once we've thrown back a bucket or two of Trois Dames, it'll all start to make more sense...

View attachment 168843
View attachment 168844

"During listening no active speed control is employed. While listening, the motors are only running in a closed loop mode. By eliminating active speed control the “cogging” and associated ill effects on image stability generated by such active systems is avoided."

Someone might want to explain to them what 'closed loop' means. We can let the misappropriated trigger word slide.
 

Robin L

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Finally, after all these years, and in response to a question that exactly no one was asking, the folks at Nagra have decided to sell a record player. You can go to their site and read their pseudo-engineering marketeering spiel. Obviously it'll be top notch, but it got me to thinking about how it all went down, at the marketing and product planning meeting:

Dieter: Ok, I've called this meeting to brainstorm ideas about what can we do to play on our 'heritage', and cash in on the vinyl resurgence. You know, we want to be able to sell something no one else has. Something that will definitely justify the through the roof cost we're going to charge, and at the same time, something having the 'Nagra aura'.

Hans: How about instead of 'regular' belt drive, we add an additional belt-tensioner flywheel thingy? That will make it look like an open reel deck, and we can offer some sort of esoteric engineering claim for, something that will sound believable to Ken, over and Hi Fi News. And we'll ship one to Fremer, over at Stereophile. You know, the guy that just got his whole house wiring upgrade. He'll definitely appreciate that with a good review!

Dieter: Great, thinking. That's what I'm looking for. We'll make the drive system look like an open reel tape recorder. And open reel is about as cool as you can get. Anyone else? Brenner?

Brenner: And of course we'll add a little round meter that measures something. VU? Not sure about that. How about wow and flutter? Or rpm?

Hans: We'll call it the Nagra Modulometer!

Brenner: Umm...er... what's a Modulometer? Isn't that that from a '50s sci-fi movie?

Hans: No. Your thinking about an Interociter. This will be different. And much better. We'll figure out what it does later, tonight at the pub, after work. Once we've thrown back a bucket or two of Trois Dames, it'll all start to make more sense...

View attachment 168843
View attachment 168844
Reminds me of the Nagra D:

R.jpg



Cost something like $10,000 back in 1992. A reel-to-reel digital tape recorder, capable of 4 channels of 16-bit or two channels of 20-bit recording [by syncing up two channels as one]. The updated version, the Dii, features the same physical design, but now maxes out at 24/96 for all four channels. In any case, big, bulky, totally non-standard, hard to find tape, very expensive and so on.

The Tascam Portacapture X8 6-input/6-track handheld adaptive multitrack recorder is a handheld digital recorder, uses Micro-SD chips up to 512gb in size, far more practical in every way. $500. Have no idea what the Nagra Dii costs.


tascam_portacapture_x8_handheld_adaptive_1637106380_1644741.jpg

 

anmpr1

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Can a Stellavox record player be next? LOL

I remember times 'twisting the tape' when loading a reel. Hopefully the Nagra belt won't allow for that. But will it squeak, and shed rubber? That's the real question. :facepalm:

I like Nagra gear. I'm talking their kit from back in the day. Not much like it. Solid engineering without a price point. You paid a lot, but you got what you paid for. And it served an important purpose, out in the field. But sometimes I think you have to laugh at what they've become, with this sort of thing. Which often seems like it boils down to selling something with admittedly exquisite fit and finish at a high price, for no compelling reason.
 

sergeauckland

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Can a Stellavox record player be next? LOL

I remember times 'twisting the tape' when loading a reel. Hopefully the Nagra belt won't allow for that. But will it squeak, and shed rubber? That's the real question. :facepalm:

I like Nagra gear. I'm talking their kit from back in the day. Not much like it. Solid engineering without a price point. You paid a lot, but you got what you paid for. And it served an important purpose, out in the field. But sometimes I think you have to laugh at what they've become, with this sort of thing. Which often seems like it boils down to selling something with admittedly exquisite fit and finish at a high price, for no compelling reason.
Nagra are now a very different company from when Stefan Kudelski ran it. At that time is was entirely engineering based, but then split into two companies, Kudelski Group which are still engineering based, mainly in Video encryption and security, and run by Andre Kudelski. The Nagra Audio company, which is a brand of the Audio Technology group, was at one time run by Stefan Kudelski's daughter, but I don't think there is now any connection between the two groups.

It seems to me that Nagra Audio just trade on the visual style of past excellence, without any of the substance.

S.
 

Suffolkhifinut

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"During listening no active speed control is employed. While listening, the motors are only running in a closed loop mode. By eliminating active speed control the “cogging” and associated ill effects on image stability generated by such active systems is avoided."

Someone might want to explain to them what 'closed loop' means. We can let the misappropriated trigger word slide.
There are two types of closed loop system, positional and velocity. Turntables obviously fall into the ‘velocity’ category. Speed is monitored and a feedback signal is applied to the controller in an attempt to keep the speed at the set value. This means the speed oscillates slightly around the set point. In my opinion for turntables an open loop (no feedback compensation) system with a heavy platter is much better, the gives a flywheel effect in trying to keep the speed stable.
 

JP

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There are two types of closed loop system, positional and velocity. Turntables obviously fall into the ‘velocity’ category. Speed is monitored and a feedback signal is applied to the controller in an attempt to keep the speed at the set value. This means the speed oscillates slightly around the set point. In my opinion for turntables an open loop (no feedback compensation) system with a heavy platter is much better, the gives a flywheel effect in trying to keep the speed stable.

Not sure why you're quoting me as your post appears to be unrelated. Either approach can be executed sufficiently such that errors are below audibility. Still, the best speed consistency I've seen remains PLL DD.
 

Suffolkhifinut

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Not sure why you're quoting me as your post appears to be unrelated. Either approach can be executed sufficiently such that errors are below audibility. Still, the best speed consistency I've seen remains PLL DD.
You asked for ‘Someone to explain what closed loop means?’ That’s what you got, a straightforward question got a straightforward answer. Cogging is something entirely different.
 

JP

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You asked for ‘Someone to explain what closed loop means?’ That’s what you got, a straightforward question got a straightforward answer. Cogging is something entirely different.

May want to read it again. It was a rhetorical statement pointing out that they mixed up closed-loop and open-loop.
 
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