Trying to find the best DAC+Amp combo for the HD800s, under $900. Was originally leaning towards Schiit products, but they don't seem to review well.

[Quinton595]

Hello everyone,

I will shortly be buying some HD800s. I love them for their clarity, detail, and open-ness. I am trying to figure out what DAC and Amp to use with them, though, as I currently don't own an Amp, and am borrowing a DAC (Grace SDAC).

I've tried to do my reading, but I keep coming across a lot of contradictory and outdated information.

I've always had my heart set on some Schiit products, but for no real, substantive reason. I just like the way they look, and know their catalogue well.

I AM open to other brands, but only if they look as good, and as clean as the Schiit products. My stack will end up sitting directly in front of me, a foot away, under my monitor, so I'll be looking at it 24/7.

Anyway, I was originally considering the Lyr+ and the Modius Dac. Roughly $879, and it gets me a Tube amp, a Solid State Amp, and a discrete, balanced DAC.

However, after reading, it seems a lot of people don't hear much difference between the tube and solid states, because the tube stage is very clear, and not "tubey". And the solid state itself doesn't seem to be very good, as far as raw measurements go. Also, when in solid state, the tube is still powered, so you're still burning through its lifespan.

So then I started to consider the Jotunheim 2 with its integrated DAC card. Much cheaper, at $599, and it gets me a balanced Amp, and A Multibit DAC.... but then I started reading, and everyone hates the Multibit DAC. Okay, so I can buy the solid state DAC card instead.... except that one apparently tests horribly too. Amir's reviews, for example, really shake my confidence in it.

The thing is, I can't find any reviews or testing on the NEW ES9028 DAC card. So I don't know if these issues have been addressed.

Okay, so how about a Jotunheim 2 and a Modius DAC?

Well, then there's also the Valhalla 2 OTL tube amp. Okay, that one tests abysmally, per Amir, but seems to be beloved by actual users?

Then there's the smaller cousins of everything, the Modi and Magni

Then there's other brands like the JDS Labs Atom stack...

Oh, and I'd one day like to be able to add a speaker amp to the stack, so I need something that disables speaker outputs when a headphone is plugged in...

Can you tell I'm overwhelmed?


--

It appears that I don't have particularly discerning ears. I don't seem capable of hearing a lot of the subtleties that others describe in the audio world. For example, the soundstage on the HD800s sounds, to MY ears, exactly the same as the soundstage on the HD6XX. This is apparently heresy, as the difference SHOULD be night-and-day.

So, a big part of me wonders if I'm going to even hear some of the complaints people have about given systems. They say the Jotunheim 2 is too bright with the HD800s, or that the Valhalla's technical performance is too low... but will I even be able to hear a difference? Should I just buy based on looks?

Thank you all for your time.

 

[Curupira]

Okay, so how about a Jotunheim 2 and a Modius DAC?

Even the magni will drive the 800s fine. But I get the appeal the Jot 2 has, from a purely circuit nerd standpoint. In power specs it's also superb, having ample headroom even with the most agressive negative preamp for EQ.

The modius is a fine dac, the old akm version was raved by DAC sommeliers as being the next best thing to a Multibit Schiit. I don't know how the current one fares in that folklore. Being pragmatic, it will suit your purposes with some caveats to be considered: schiit dacs won't support bit perfect DSD or MQA, so if you care about that, rule them out. Another even more pragmatic caveat is that they have no preamp function, they're always on either 2V or 4V lineout. So, considering that the Jot 2 already ha pretty high gain AND power baked in, using sensitive headphones/iems while feeding it xlr from the modius might be a problem volume wise.

Regarding the Valhalla 2, it's a ok tube amp. Won't measure fantastic but that's not the point. The 800s might tilt it's FR clockwise a bit due to the OTL design, getting some boosted bass. You can replicate that with EQ
though. Caveats it's that you won't be able to use iems or sensitive headphones with it as well as you could do with linear SS designs.

A Final word of warning for you considering the amount of research you've done: source difference is subtle if not existant at all. The biggest difference you'd get to your 800s are from EQ.

So yeah, better to choose on looks, features and, why not, specific known bias that might appeal to you (I for one love vintage OTL designs and Multibit, not for sound but rather for concept) instead of going nuts while trying to thin out the consensual "objective" winner among subjectivist reviews because, guess what, that's a fools errand by principle.

 

[Robin L]

I've had such good luck with Topping's bottom of the line E30/L30 combo, hard to imagine that their more expensive products wouldn't at least equal those fine products. Really amazing how clean they sound. I'm mostly using Drop 6XX headphones, but also use the mini-stack to adjust volume when listening to loudspeakers.

 

[jcarys]

I voted for a Topping stack based on my own experience with the 30s and 50s. I wouldn't buy based on looks, I would buy based on performance, so you have lots of options. If you are going for clarity, I see no need to mess that up with tube distortion. You could even step up to crazy level performance like the A70/E70 and stay within your budget. These perform better than your ability to hear differences, so you can keep them forever. And yes, use a bit of EQ to dial in the sound to your ears.

 

[Peewee12]

Why aren't you interested in the Schiit Midgard? I have one and I absolutely love it. It's well reviewed here, too.

 

[oleg87]

I think the Topping L30 II can switch between headphone and pre-outs right?
I'd just get that and the matching DAC. I don't see any good reason to spend $900 on basic headphone source gear. At that point I'd rather stretch my budget to the RME ADI-2 DAC FS and get something feature-packed for my money.

Balanced headphone outs are not worth concerning yourself with for desktop equipment with relatively sensitive headphones. Balanced interconnects between dac/amp and amp/speakers may be a good idea though.

 

[Joe Smith]

Can't say enough good about the JDS stack, particularly now that they have the new metal cases...

 

[DVDdoug]

Technically, there is no "best". There is good enough... Enough output power to go loud-enough without distortion and no audible noise or other damage to the signal. Noise (hum, hiss, or whine in the background) is usually the only concern and that's rarely a problem.

Of course you can choose based on appearance and features.

Roughly $879, and it gets me a Tube amp,

Tubes have been obsolete for about half a century. You can make a good tube amp but it costs more to build than solid state.

They say the Jotunheim 2 is too bright with the HD800s,

Probably not true! "They say" lots of things. Electronics shouldn't be bright or dull (assuming no EQ or other intentional processing). It's cheap & easy to get flat frequency response, at least with solid state.

"Some people without brains do an awful lot of talking, don't they?"
The Scarecrow

On the other hand, different headphones will sound different. Mostly it's frequency response. And there is some personal preference involved.

For example, the soundstage on the HD800s...

There seems to be a lot of talk about headphone soundstage but surprisingly, most people perceive the sound from coming inside their head. I hear it coming from around my forehead. Headphone soundstage survey

 

[MRC01]

I recommend the Jotunheim with 9028, or the JDS Atom stack. The Jotunheim gives you more options, analog both balanced and unbalanced, inputs and outputs, as well as the built-in DAC. And its Alps RK27 is the best analog volume control on the planet. But if you don't need that flexibility, all you need is single ended RCA, the JDS Atom stack (DAC and amp) does everything you need. I own both setups (one at work, one at home). And both have high quality, made in USA with great warranty support.

IME, the SMSL and Topping gear has firmware bugs, quality issues, and poor warranty support. Even though it measures well it is not worth the hassle.

 

[Quinton595]

Even the magni will drive the 800s fine. But I get the appeal the Jot 2 has, from a purely circuit nerd standpoint. In power specs it's also superb, having ample headroom even with the most agressive negative preamp for EQ.

The modius is a fine dac, the old akm version was raved by DAC sommeliers as being the next best thing to a Multibit Schiit. I don't know how the current one fares in that folklore. Being pragmatic, it will suit your purposes with some caveats to be considered: schiit dacs won't support bit perfect DSD or MQA, so if you care about that, rule them out. Another even more pragmatic caveat is that they have no preamp function, they're always on either 2V or 4V lineout. So, considering that the Jot 2 already ha pretty high gain AND power baked in, using sensitive headphones/iems while feeding it xlr from the modius might be a problem volume wise.

Regarding the Valhalla 2, it's a ok tube amp. Won't measure fantastic but that's not the point. The 800s might tilt it's FR clockwise a bit due to the OTL design, getting some boosted bass. You can replicate that with EQ
though. Caveats it's that you won't be able to use iems or sensitive headphones with it as well as you could do with linear SS designs.

A Final word of warning for you considering the amount of research you've done: source difference is subtle if not existant at all. The biggest difference you'd get to your 800s are from EQ.

So yeah, better to choose on looks, features and, why not, specific known bias that might appeal to you (I for one love vintage OTL designs and Multibit, not for sound but rather for concept) instead of going nuts while trying to thin out the consensual "objective" winner among subjectivist reviews because, guess what, that's a fools errand by principle.

Considering I don't even know what "Bit Perfect DSD or MQA" is, I think I can, indeed, rule them out.

As for preamp, I don't see myself ever owning a preamp. In addition to the current DAC + Amp combo, the only other thing I could see myself purchasing is a speaker amp one day, like the Gjallarhorn.

As for the Valhalla, I do want more bass in the HD800s. I intend to apply an EQ bass boost, of roughly 5.8 dB in 31hz and 62hz, then 3 dB in 125hz, then 0 by 250hz. If I can get more bass "naturally", through equipment, rather than through EQ, I think this is to be preferred? An equal number of people are split on whether hardware EQ/FR or Software EQ is "better".

I don't plan on ever owning other headphones. I am not a gear-head or an audiophile who enjoys the shopping process. I just want to buy one setup, and never have to think about the topic again, for at least 10 years.

As for the source difference, yeah, that's my biggest unknown. Like, given what I mentioned above about not being able to hear the supposedly-day-and-night differences between headphone models themselves, and then factoring in that most people say sound is 85% headphones, and 10% music quality, and only 5% source quality, I question whether I'll be able to hear the 10% difference of a 5% factor, between different models of DAC/AMP. Of course, though, you get lots of people who swear on the lives of their unborn children that the differences between specific dac CHIPS are night-and-day obvious, so....

Why aren't you interested in the Schiit Midgard? I have one and I absolutely love it. It's well reviewed here, too.

To be honest, I just know nothing about it, and it seemed like it was just a smaller sibling, meant for a lower price-point, of the Jotunheim 2. I figured the Jot was better in every way, but I don't really know if that's true.

Technically, there is no "best". There is good enough... Enough output power to go loud-enough without distortion and no audible noise or other damage to the signal. Noise (hum, hiss, or whine in the background) is usually the only concern and that's rarely a problem.

Of course you can choose based on appearance and features.


Tubes have been obsolete for about half a century. You can make a good tube amp but it costs more to build than solid state.


Probably not true! "They say" lots of things. Electronics shouldn't be bright or dull (assuming no EQ or other intentional processing). It's cheap & easy to get flat frequency response, at least with solid state.

"Some people without brains do an awful lot of talking, don't they?"
The Scarecrow

On the other hand, different headphones will sound different. Mostly it's frequency response. And there is some personal preference involved.


There seems to be a lot of talk about headphone soundstage but surprisingly, most people perceive the sound from coming inside their head. I hear it coming from around my forehead. Headphone soundstage survey

Yeah, noise is a BIG deal to me. I want absolutely none. I already have mild Tinnitus (not from loud noises, just from birth), so noise sounds to my ears like even more tinnitus. I really want a quiet system.

That said, even the supposedly very-poor-quality DACS and AMPS that are tested by Amir have noise levels down at like -120 dB, which brings to question whether ANY human ears can hear it in the first place. I don't really have anything to back up this statement, but I'm sorta just assuming that any amp or DAC over $100 is going to be completely and utterly noise-free, no matter the design or architecture, as long as there aren't any glaring electrical problems, like an un-grounded case.

 

[oleg87]

To be honest, I just know nothing about it, and it seemed like it was just a smaller sibling, meant for a lower price-point, of the Jotunheim 2. I figured the Jot was better in every way, but I don't really know if that's true.

In terms of measured performance, the Midgard is better by pretty much any metric, though the Jot2 edges it out in terms of power by a little bit. But it's just an amp.

 

[MRC01]

... As for the Valhalla, I do want more bass in the HD800s. I intend to apply an EQ bass boost, of roughly 5.8 dB in 31hz and 62hz, then 3 dB in 125hz, then 0 by 250hz. If I can get more bass "naturally", through equipment, rather than through EQ, I think this is to be preferred? An equal number of people are split on whether hardware EQ/FR or Software EQ is "better".

The HD800 does roll off the bottom 2-3 bass octaves, so that makes sense. Best to have a well engineered amp with flat response and correct this with DSP.

... That said, even the supposedly very-poor-quality DACS and AMPS that are tested by Amir have noise levels down at like -120 dB, which brings to question whether ANY human ears can hear it in the first place. ...

Nope, that's only at max volume, which you'll never use. The 50 mV SNR is a better guide, and that's in the 80-90 range with most amps, the best get into the mid 90s. But the HD800 has relatively low voltage sensitivity, so mid 80s will be sufficient, putting noise low enough to be inaudible.

 

[Quinton595]

The HD800 does roll off the bottom 2-3 bass octaves, so that makes sense. Best to have a well engineered amp with flat response and correct this with DSP.


Nope, that's only at max volume, which you'll never use. The 50 mV SNR is a better guide, and that's in the 80-90 range with most amps, the best get into the mid 90s. But the HD800 has relatively low voltage sensitivity, so mid 80s will be sufficient, putting noise low enough to be inaudible.

Sorry, my technical understanding is limited, how is it that the noise level gets HIGHER at a LOWER volume?

Regardless, you say the HD800 has a relatively low voltage sensitivity, so mid 80s is sufficient. By this, are you referring to a specific DAC/AMP? Or are you saying many of them are beyond this point, so I'm free to choose? I tried checking the Jotunheim's specs, for example, and the SNR is listed as " >102db, unweighted, referenced to 2V RMS", so I have no idea how that meshes with what you're saying. Also, I take it the HD800S has roughly the same voltage sensitivity as the HD800?

You also say best to have a well-engineered amp with a flat response. Again, are you referring specifically to one of my listed contenders, or just in general?

 

[MRC01]

Sorry, my technical understanding is limited, how is it that the noise level gets HIGHER at a LOWER volume?
...

The noise doesn't get higher, but the ratio of noise to signal gets higher. SNR is the ratio of signal to noise. Think of noise as being at a constant level. When you turn down the signal, that ratio gets smaller (worse). That's an oversimplification, but it is essentially how it works. Most amps measure SNR at max output, which nobody uses. This is why Amir measures it at 50 mV, to get a more useful real-world comparison. Just because amp A has a higher SNR than amp B at max output, doesn't necessarily mean amp A is higher than amp B at the low to moderate volume settings actually used for listening.

... Regardless, you say the HD800 has a relatively low voltage sensitivity, so mid 80s is sufficient. By this, are you referring to a specific DAC/AMP? Or are you saying many of them are beyond this point, so I'm free to choose? I tried checking the Jotunheim's specs, for example, and the SNR is listed as " >102db, unweighted, referenced to 2V RMS", so I have no idea how that meshes with what you're saying. Also, I take it the HD800S has roughly the same voltage sensitivity as the HD800?

Amir measured the Jotunehim 2 SNR at 84 dB at 50 mV. Lowish voltage sensitivity headphones like the HD800 use relatively higher voltage / volume settings, so this should be sufficient to make that headphone entirely noise-free at normal listening levels. If, OTOH, you plugged in IEMs with high voltage sensitivty, you would be using lower volume settings for the same sound level and might hear some low level noise/hiss.

PS: the new JDS Atom measures an impressive 94 dB SNR at 50 mV, a full 10 dB better than the Jotunheim. You probably won't hear the difference with HD800 headphones, but you could hear the difference with highly sensitive headphones that use lower volume settings. I listen to my Jotunheim 2 with HD-580 headphones which have similar voltage sensitivity to the HD800, and even with highly dynamic classical music the noise is so quiet I'd have to crank it up to painful levels to hear it.

You also say best to have a well-engineered amp with a flat response. Again, are you referring specifically to one of my listed contenders, or just in general?

In general.

 

[Brian Hall]

Hello everyone,

I will shortly be buying some HD800s. I love them for their clarity, detail, and open-ness. I am trying to figure out what DAC and Amp to use with them, though, as I currently don't own an Amp, and am borrowing a DAC (Grace SDAC).

I've tried to do my reading, but I keep coming across a lot of contradictory and outdated information.

I've always had my heart set on some Schiit products, but for no real, substantive reason. I just like the way they look, and know their catalogue well.

I AM open to other brands, but only if they look as good, and as clean as the Schiit products. My stack will end up sitting directly in front of me, a foot away, under my monitor, so I'll be looking at it 24/7.

Anyway, I was originally considering the Lyr+ and the Modius Dac. Roughly $879, and it gets me a Tube amp, a Solid State Amp, and a discrete, balanced DAC.

However, after reading, it seems a lot of people don't hear much difference between the tube and solid states, because the tube stage is very clear, and not "tubey". And the solid state itself doesn't seem to be very good, as far as raw measurements go. Also, when in solid state, the tube is still powered, so you're still burning through its lifespan.

So then I started to consider the Jotunheim 2 with its integrated DAC card. Much cheaper, at $599, and it gets me a balanced Amp, and A Multibit DAC.... but then I started reading, and everyone hates the Multibit DAC. Okay, so I can buy the solid state DAC card instead.... except that one apparently tests horribly too. Amir's reviews, for example, really shake my confidence in it.

The thing is, I can't find any reviews or testing on the NEW ES9028 DAC card. So I don't know if these issues have been addressed.

Okay, so how about a Jotunheim 2 and a Modius DAC?

Well, then there's also the Valhalla 2 OTL tube amp. Okay, that one tests abysmally, per Amir, but seems to be beloved by actual users?

Then there's the smaller cousins of everything, the Modi and Magni

Then there's other brands like the JDS Labs Atom stack...

Oh, and I'd one day like to be able to add a speaker amp to the stack, so I need something that disables speaker outputs when a headphone is plugged in...

Can you tell I'm overwhelmed?


--

It appears that I don't have particularly discerning ears. I don't seem capable of hearing a lot of the subtleties that others describe in the audio world. For example, the soundstage on the HD800s sounds, to MY ears, exactly the same as the soundstage on the HD6XX. This is apparently heresy, as the difference SHOULD be night-and-day.

So, a big part of me wonders if I'm going to even hear some of the complaints people have about given systems. They say the Jotunheim 2 is too bright with the HD800s, or that the Valhalla's technical performance is too low... but will I even be able to hear a difference? Should I just buy based on looks?

Thank you all for your time.

You left off the best combination: Modius -> Lokius -> Midgard.

 

[MRC01]

Which reminds me, if you go the JDS route, you can add the Subjective 3 if you want EQ. I built one, and it is a good little piece of kit.

 

[MRC01]

BTW when it comes to EQ, there are two kinds:

1. Room / headphone correction Here you need a precision scalpel. Parametric EQ with multiple bands, so you can set the precise frequency, amplitude, and width of each. Ideally, with memory settings so you can define a multi-band profile for each of your headphones or rooms and punch it in with a click.

2. Recording correction Here you need something much simpler, just a simple tone tilt control, or bass/treble, to adjust brighter / darker. No recording is perfect and some things (like dynamic compression) can't be fixed. But a simple adjustment to bring excessively bright or dark recordings closer to neutral goes a long way toward musical enjoyment.

Many of the EQs on the market try to do both, which means failing at both. If it's flexible enough to adequately correct headphone response (multi band parametric EQ), it's too complex to fuss with when all you want to do is tame an excessively bright recording. And if it has knobs at specific frequencies instead of true parametric EQ, more than 2 or 3 knobs makes it more complex than you need to adjust recordings, while still being insufficient to correct headphone response.

Thinking of it this way helps clarify what you need, for what purpose. You might want only one, only the other, and if both they are 2 different things.

 

[Brian Hall]

BTW when it comes to EQ, there are two kinds:

1. Room / headphone correction Here you need a precision scalpel. Parametric EQ with multiple bands, so you can set the precise frequency, amplitude, and width of each. Ideally, with memory settings so you can define a multi-band profile for each of your headphones or rooms and punch it in with a click.

I use a Lokius to just boost parts of the bass for my headphones and sometimes to cut back a bit on treble for certain female singers.

It gives me all the simple control I need and the 6 different knobs cover enough ranges.

 

[Dunring]

I've has the HD800s many times including last week (see profile picture) and they sound good on a lot of things. The ones you can't go wrong with from personal experience:
JDS Atom + Amp/DAC combo
Topping L30 II/E30 II
Topping E50/L50
SMSL DO400 (listening to one now, this thing sounds great)
Schiit Magni/Modi (but now would recommend the Heretic because the volume wheel location on the Magni Heresy will drive you crazy eventually)

People who say they're "picky" about amplifiers are suffering from deflection. The HD800s sounds good on a lot of high quality, affordable stacks. If it's got digital volume control for perfect channel matching, even better. It's the people who are picky about amplifiers, and they're blaming the headphones. The silent noise floor of the L30 II and also L50 are really good. There's a new JDS Atom 2 combo out, which I'm sure is even better, but haven't heard it yet. I'd have enough faith in JDS Labs to buy one blind though.

 

[MRC01]

... There's a new JDS Atom 2 combo out, which I'm sure is even better, but haven't heard it yet. I'd have enough faith in JDS Labs to buy one blind though.

I bought one to replace my old original Atom. The new one is much nicer (metal case, buttons & knob), the volume knob is butter smooth, it has a higher 50 mV SNR of 94 dB, and a bit more power. With JDS Labs excellent warranty & support, which you probably won't need, it's definitely a great buy.