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Trying to do better - comparing Amir's measurements for speaker selection

Markelian

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Hello everyone, my first post here!

Just as a short preface to how i got here, but you can skip it if you're short on time
I bought the RP-600m, i supposed based on the hype and on the premise i could eq away the crossover dip at 1.8khz and have a "tehnically good" and "visually sexy" speaker which would allow me to really push the DACs i design and amps i build, to really hear them sing so to speak.
However, when i got them I felt like i was just playing back music files, not really listening to the music. Immediately the soundstage struck me as being shallow, the speakers did not dissapear, im just not really vibing with these, you know. They're ok i guess, not bad, not broken. Just....eeh..i dont want to just "get used to them".
The speakers i've owned prior (1972 braun/ads l710) sounded better in most respects, fair enough only after i did a lot of measurements and room correction, but it didnt help with the RP600m's much. And i paid 520€ for them on amazon.de, kind of a lot of dough to not be satisfied.
So seeing as im in amazon.de's (okay, its from a private seller on there, i hope returns with the prepaid label still work) return policy ill probably return them, but then i gotta get something else so...
So i want to do it right this time and not just go by raves, and think a bit more about it. I already feel bad about having to return this pair so i'd like to avoid returns.
Imaging and soundstage, immersion into the music is what im lacking with the RP600's so just around this price bracket i was looking at ub52 (unifi 2.0) , and dbr62 (debut reference), even willing to go up to ubr62 (unifi reference). Im not sure else what's available on amazon.de or my local ****** country other than these sort of choices.

Here are the individual reviews on this site for quick review:
UB52 https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ac-uni-fi-2-0-review-bookshelf-speaker.19216/
UBR62 https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/elac-ubr62-speaker-review.24585/
DBR62 https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-debut-reference-dbr-62-speaker-review.12232/
RP-600M https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/klipsch-rp-600m-speaker-review.12138/

I was looking at Amir's measurements on the rp-600m (currently own), and UB52's klippel frequency response, specifically the bass response.
I matched them by roll-off tails, and the rest of the output seems to line up as well.
1650826853930.png

Conundrum 1: The Rp600 is a substantially larger box with a 6.5in, the ub52 is tiny with a small 5.5in, yet the UB seems to have almost the same knee point, and if anything a bit more bass relative to the rest of its output (not absolute per watt, since i didnt match the outputs by db, i listen only nearfield and at 5W output).
Now i have the rp-600m right next to me, and i can tell you they go to about 37hz in my room (albeit EQ'd) and then fall off a cliff, but just by looking at them i cant even imagine the ub52's doing the same. Ok, one is rear and the other front ported, but i would be more than happy if i could get even a similar level of extension (also EQ'd). That's why the knee is important to me, as it presents a hint to how low i could even take these.
I think im a pretty tough customer because one of the things im pretty stiff on is i really cant enjoy sound unless i have at least 40hz -3db point, and i tried to compromise on this and it failed every time. Unfortunately since i move a lot and have limited space subs is something i dont want to need to have. Usually i just eq it to heck and bear with the bloat, i listen to a lot of ambience vaporwave where you're just sort of enveloped in a wall of sound, whatever. I know, please dont cringe at me, it works for me. Sorry if im stupid.

Conundrum 2: UBR62 has a 6.5in driver, yet from where i've seen it measured, very anemic bass response. Even compared to the little 5.5in ub52 (with smaller boxes to boot). Granted one is Amir's and the other Erin's, but a klippel is a klippel?
1650827678027.png

What's up with that? Presumably a larger driver diameter would also have more mass and a lower f3, and i think these 6.5's from elac have pretty big magnets IIRC.
I guess it's just the box tuning then. Also the scaling is subtly off, here i db matched at 75, and by 40 the numbers are off.
Can anyone who owned the ubr62 comment on its extension, especially relative to ub52 or rp600? I guess its a small subset of people here, sorry if im asking a lot..
1650829522816.png

For completeness UBR62 vs DBR62, similar.

I'd still like to hear any speaker recommendations based on this, or any thoughts, or where i messed up, or if you feel disgusted by me, or something else.
 

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TheBatsEar

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Sadly, room gain will throw a wrench in your bass calculations, what you see there is not what you will hear in your room at all. The best speaker, i believe, is the one that has low distortion and good directivity. Frequency response flaws can be fixed with EQ. However, if the directivity or distortion sucks, EQ/DSP isn't able to fix everything. As for bass, don't overthink it. Most of us have a subwoofer. I would simply disregard bass questions for now.

Not sure about your budget, but i think a very, very good system today would be a pair of Kef LS50 (a pair can be had for 700€ now!) and later maybe a subwoofer like the SVS SB-1000 (500€). They respond very well to EQ.


BTW, i bought the R-41M on a whim a few years ago, mostly because how it looks, a bit like you.
Probably the worst speaker i ever had. I'm selling them on Ebay ;) Seems Klipsch survives only because of their design.

Welcome to ASR :cool:

Now lets see what other have to say.
 
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Markelian

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Welcome to ASR :cool:
Hello BatsEar and thank you for your comment!
Sadly, room gain will throw a wrench in your bass calculations, what you see there is not what you will hear in your room at all.
Aha, but a positive direction for me, as i always feel bass deprived, i take the klippel "anacheoic" as the worst case scenario.
The best speaker, i believe, is the one that has low distortion and good directivity. Frequency response flaws can be fixed with EQ. However, if the directivity or distortion sucks, EQ/DSP isn't able to fix everything. As for bass, don't overthink it. Most of us have a subwoofer. I would simply disregard bass questions for now.
You are completely right, but in this case i mentioned in a spoiler due to constant moving of apartment and small space i do not currently wish to own a subwoofer, and for the same reason speakers cannot be floorstanders. Meaning im asking small bookshelfes to do at least 40hz -3db, and to boot, bass is an important aspect (among other things) of music enjoyement to me. I know it is very weird and stupid way to evaluate bookshelves, but i guess this is my concept for what i have to work with.
Not sure about your budget, but i think a very, very good system today would be a pair of Kef LS50 (a pair can be had for 700€ now!) and later maybe a subwoofer like the SVS SB-1000 (500€). They respond very well to EQ.
About 500€, give or take. This is more than half my monthly salary believe it or not (im an ERP systems engineer working outsourced for Austrian company, but because im here and they're 3 hours drive away, they make 4k€/mo), otherwise i would not be deliberating so much about it..
Bought rp-600 for 520€, and unifi UB52 which im considering is 540€ on amazon.de.
BTW, i bought the R-41M on a whim a few years ago, mostly because how it looks, a bit like you.
Probably the worst speaker i ever had. I'm selling them on Ebay ;) Seems Klipsch survives only because of their design.
Sorry to hear that but also glad im not alone in this! :)
But, my dissapointment was a bit graver, as i also expected a speaker for the next 5 years at least.
 

TheBatsEar

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Aha, but a positive direction for me, as i always feel bass deprived, i take the klippel "anacheoic" as the worst case scenario.
Fair enough. But if you really like it full range, and yet prefer a standmount speaker, a subwoofer is the best solution really. I have built my own for 300€ and can't say that i'm unhappy with it.

You are completely right, but in this case i mentioned in a spoiler due to constant moving of apartment and small space i do not currently wish to own a subwoofer, and for the same reason speakers cannot be floorstanders. Meaning im asking small bookshelfes to do at least 40hz -3db, and to boot, bass is an important aspect (among other things) of music enjoyement to me.
I don't think 40Hz/-3dB is realistic, even with room gain. As for moving with a subwoofer, it's just another box :).

About 500€, give or take.
Then the LS50 is out of your budget.
But because i found them for 665,42€ incl shipping, i bought a pair for myself just now. :cool:

This is more than half my monthly salary believe it or not (im an ERP systems engineer working outsourced for Austrian company, but because im here and they're 3 hours drive away, they make 4k€/mo), otherwise i would not be deliberating so much about it.
Is a move to Austria in the cards?

Bought rp-600 for 520€, and unifi UB52 which im considering is 540€ on amazon.de.
I have seen them for 500€:
Free shipping, not sure if that includes to your place.

Maybe buying used is an option, usually you can get back what you payed by selling them on.
 

TheBatsEar

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Midwest Blade

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The Elac DBR62 is a fine speaker as reviewed by Amir. Would be a great recovery from the RP600 and get you up and running.
 
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Markelian

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I don't think 40Hz/-3dB is realistic, even with room gain. As for moving with a subwoofer, it's just another box :).
Hmmm yes...wishful thinking on my part probably!
Then the LS50 is out of your budget.
But because i found them for 665,42€ incl shipping, i bought a pair for myself just now. :cool:
Very cool, glad for you :cool:
Is a move to Austria in the cards?
Hmm i do not plan to spend my life here (but pension, probably), so if im moving maybe just see around the block a bit, netherlands, belgium, germany, denmark... and see how you guys have it up there :)
I have seen them for 500€:
Free shipping, not sure if that includes to your place.
elektrowelt24.de is the seller on amazon.de that i got the rp600's from. They also sell the ub52's, for 40€ more (due to more VAT + 15eur shipping) than on their site but i would rather go through amazon as then i have a guaranteed return policy. But thank you for the help! Do you know/use this store usually, they seem nice to me?
Maybe buying used is an option, usually you can get back what you payed by selling them on.
I was hunting for it, there was UB5's (rear ported, better corner loading for my perverted needs) sold a few months ago but market here is slow and not so much variety. But i know that, eventually when i move on, i'll be able to sell my speakers 2nd hand easily.

The Elac DBR62 is a fine speaker as reviewed by Amir. Would be a great recovery from the RP600 and get you up and running.
Hmm yes i saw, seems like a safe choice. But something attracts me to the coaxial, i know is not a popular stance 'round these parts. I see a lot of rave reviews about the imaging...oh no, looks like i havent learned my lesson about rave reviews with the rp600!
 

TheBatsEar

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Very cool, glad for you :cool:
Cheers.

elektrowelt24.de [...] Do you know/use this store usually, they seem nice to me?
No experience with them.

But something attracts me to the coaxial, i know is not a popular stance 'round these parts. I see a lot of rave reviews about the imaging...oh no, looks like i havent learned my lesson about rave reviews with the rp600!
Let me throw the Kef Q350 in the mix then. Very nice directivity because of it's koaxial driver, and not to bass shy. Because of excellent directivity and reasonable distortion, it should take DSP nicely. I think the bass hump could be smoothed away, Amir smoothes away two resonances and that would make a nice sounding speaker.
Didn't look up prices however.
 

Ciobi69

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Hmmm yes...wishful thinking on my part probably!

Very cool, glad for you:cool:

Hmm i do not plan to spend my life here (but pension, probably), so if im moving maybe just see around the block a bit, netherlands, belgium, germany, denmark... and see how you guys have it up there:)

elektrowelt24.de is the seller on amazon.de that i got the rp600's from. They also sell the ub52's, for 40€ more (due to more VAT + 15eur shipping) than on their site but i would rather go through amazon as then i have a guaranteed return policy. But thank you for the help! Do you know/use this store usually, they seem nice to me?

I was hunting for it, there was UB5's (rear ported, better corner loading for my perverted needs) sold a few months ago but market here is slow and not so much variety. But i know that, eventually when i move on, i'll be able to sell my speakers 2nd hand easily.


Hmm yes i saw, seems like a safe choice. But something attracts me to the coaxial, i know is not a popular stance 'round these parts. I see a lot of rave reviews about the imaging...oh no, looks like i havent learned my lesson about rave reviews with the rp600!
i know some people that ordered from elektrowelt, everything was fine
 
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