Trying out way too many headphones to find a companion to my HD600

[inselwissen]

I love my HD600 but there's some generally acknowled downsides to its design. I've made peace with the fact that the mythical "HD600 with bass and soundstage" does not exist. So I'm looking for a companion that does everything the HD600 does not do well. Variety is the spice of life and all that. See this initial post in the "what headphones do you own?" thread:

• Sennheiser HD600
• Audio-Technica ATH-R70x
• Audio-Technica ATH-R50x
• HiFiMAN HE400se
• Philips SHP9500
• AKG K371
• AKG K550 mkII

A few of these are recent additions, as I'm currently in the process of consolidating my collection down to just two open-back headphones and the closed-back AKGs, which are a necessary evil for music production.

The HD600 are a given for all the reasons one would pick them, namely natural timbre and comfort (w/ Capra strap). Something that complements the HD600 and its weaknesses makes the most sense for the second spot - think extended bass and treble and a wider soundstage. The HD600 will probably keep the #1 spot for music listening, while the other pair will be used more for immersive gaming and movies. Though having a "fun" pair around is also great for music when the mood strikes.

A few quick notes on the candidates so far:

The ATH-R70x would be my #1 do-all pick if I could only have one headphone. It's considerably better in the imaging/soundstage department than the HD600, but the HD600 has it beat for smoothness of treble and natural sound. Comfort is great for me, though I have read lots of comments to the contrary. It's a jack of all trades, and a damn good one at that, but I feel having two specialized headphones makes more sense for me.

The ATH-R50x are, suprisingly, my current front runner for the #2 spot. They are like the halfway point between the ATH-R70x and something like a DT880. I've also seen them called a "baby Sony MDR-MV1", which I fully agree with. Lots of well-extended bass, an ever so slightly recessed midrange and broadly elevated treble. Not too bad stock, but once EQ'd to the Harman target, these become FUN. I use a slightly altered version of oratory's EQ (the PDF from Reddit), which tightens up the poofy mid bass, gets the mids to a more natural place and reigns in the treble. Comfort is great because they weigh next to nothing and the split headband is designed to avoid hotspots. I wish the pads were a little larger. I put on the pads from my R70x, which have a slightly bigger inner diameter, but I'm still looking for viable alternatives. Good value. I paid 100 € shipped for a like-new pair.

I bought the HiFiMAN HE400se because of Amir's glowing review. Completely different presentation from the other headphones I own. They feel notably wider than the others, though I don't know if that translates to an actual sense of space for me. Imaging and positioning seem to be slighty off, which I notice most in first-person games. Music plays in an "out of head" kind of way that tends to remove me a little from the emotion of the track. It gets better once you fill in the gaping hole around 2 KHz. Amazingly punchy bass when properly EQ'd, too. But no matter what I do EQ-wise, they feel sort of "diffused" if that makes sense. Far from bad for what I'd use them for but I don't know if I'd ever be able to really get into a piece of music on them. Comfort is poor out of the box because of the weight and bad headband design. I ordered the matching Capra strap the day they arrived. The strap helps a lot, but it's still not an all-day headphone for me.

I've had a few Philips SHP9500 over the years. They used to be the default recommendation for gaming headphones under 100 € and for good reason. The soundstage and imaging are both good in a natural, non-exaggerated way, which means positional accuracy is on point. Stock, they are bass-shy and the treble is kind of grainy. A bass shelf and some strategic cuts in the treble (5,5 KHz is the main offender on my head) improves the sound exponentially, but the peaky treble means the usual EQ presets found online need fine-grained individual adjustments. I'm still not 100 % satisfied with my EQ curve and I'm sceptical I'll ever get these phones to sound any better than "pretty good". A big plus point for the SHP9500 is the single 3,5 mm input on the left cup, which allows you to use a wide range of aftermarket boom microphones. Back in my sweaty multiplayer days that would have been a real selling point, but now I can take it or leave it. Though they feel kind of cheap, the mechanical design and comfort are actually very good. Big ear pads, low clamping force, nicely stepped headband adjustments. Very solid in that regard.

Right now, my preference is R50x > SHP9500 > R70x > HE400se, but I'm not done yet. I still have an AKG K702 and a HiFiMAN Edition XS on the way (both used). I had the K601 for a while, loved its soundstage and comfort but can't do fixed cables anymore so I thought I'd give the K702 a shot. The Edition XS is HiFiMAN's last chance to really impress me before I write them off under "just not for me". Well, maybe I'll also need to hear the Edition XV as it seems to be a big departure from their house sound but we'll see.

Does anyone have any other ideas? Preferably for not stupid money?

I have since taken possession of the K702 and the Edition XS. Both are still not quite what I want.

The K702 has a nasty peak in the ear gain and some wonky treble going on. Once you EQ that out, the soundstage shrinks considerably. Plus, there's still some things that poke out in the mid-treble every once in a while that I haven't quite gotten to sit nicely. I think the K612 is a far superior headphone tonally, but I don't want to spend the time and effort to add a removable cable. Maybe one day I'll buy a defective pair and get to work if I feel crafty. Both AKGs have similar bass quantity and roll-off to the HD600, so maybe they won't be different enough from it either way. I'll sell this one on.

The Edition XS was a huge disappointment. Not because it sucks, it actually sounds great. The tonality is everything I wanted from the HE400se. Nicely extended bass, sparkly treble. It responds well to EQ and the soundstage is excellent, even after filling in the notorious HiFiMAN dip in the upper mids. The imaging is also leagues ahead of the HE400se, which leads me to believe my HE400se unit might have a particularly egregious driver mismatch. That would certainly explain my problems with it. Comfort is generally fine with the Capra strap installed, but there's a glaring problem. The egg-shaped ear cups constantly press against my lower jaw in a way I find absolutely unbearable. I get a maximum of half an hour of wear time before it feels like I've been doing some sort of looksmaxxing exercise. This is also a sell and it has completely killed my curiosity for the Edition XV.

So, where does this leave me? First off, I need to sell off this balooning collection before buying any more stuff. I'll keep the HD600 (duh) and the Audio-Technica ATH-R50x. And truth be told, I could be very happy with this pairing. Still have alerts set up for used Sony MDR-MV1s, which I liked a lot the few times I've heard one. I also haven't given up on HiFiMAN, against my better judgment. I'll futz around with channel-independent EQ to see if a driver mismatch is indeed the problem with my HE400se and maybe try to find a better matched pair. There's also still the Sundara. Egg-shaped models are definitely off the table.

Any other headphones I'm missing as a prospective companion to the HD600?

 

[IsaacOscar]

I was considering buying the HD600 myself (they were on sale at Amazon for only AU$495.38 with free shipping!) but I couldn't find anywhere to actually try them out, so I bought the Sennheiser HD550 instead, and their amazing (soundstage is great, but I have added a bit more bass with EQ). The HD550 are probably more suitable for use with my phone though as if only has a single cable, and had much lower impedence (so my very small Fiio Tiny DAC provides more than enough power).

I personally don't understand why you'd want more than one pair of headphones though (unless you sometimes wanted a noise cancelling, a closed back one (that doesn't leak sound), an on-ear one for when it gets, or for lending to other people?). (I do own a pair of earphones, but again don't see why you'd want more than one).

 

[Jiraya369]

soundstage in headphones is a myth, you just need to eq the hd600 to your own preferences for your own head, meaning use a sine sweep or something and find out nasty resonances which come due to HRTF and turn em down. HD600 has sufficient loudness capabilities for a normal person, you can put in a bass boost to your liking. Boosted treble, lack of bass and a dipped upper midrange creates a sense of distance in important harmonics (mids) and boosts/brings more attention to the reverb parts, boosting soundstage.

Soundstage in headphones and iems is an illusion, dont fall for the trap that one headphone is dramatically better, it's all in the FR at your ears. Openness may make a difference but it's vastly overshadowed by FR.

My take : If you enjoy your headphones, just stick with em, the grass is not greener on the other side. It's all placebo and confirmation bias, people buy expensive stuff and gaslight themselves into thinking there's sound quality improvements. If the HD600 is comfy, just eq it to your tastes, or get a pair of speakers if you want real soundstage. Something as simple as the Edifier MR3 is still available.

At the end of the day, find something nice sounding and comfy and stick with it. It doesn't get much better unless you're someone knee deep into the "audiophile" hobby and need to spend loads to feel anything.

 

[inselwissen]

I was considering buying the HD600 myself (they were on sale at Amazon for only AU$495.38 with free shipping!) but I couldn't find anywhere to actually try them out, so I bought the Sennheiser HD550 instead, and their amazing (soundstage is great, but I have added a bit more bass with EQ). The HD550 are probably more suitable for use with my phone though as if only has a single cable, and had much lower impedence (so my very small Fiio Tiny DAC provides more than enough power).

I personally don't understand why you'd want more than one pair of headphones though (unless you sometimes wanted a noise cancelling, a closed back one (that doesn't leak sound), an on-ear one for when it gets, or for lending to other people?). (I do own a pair of earphones, but again don't see why you'd want more than one).

I get your reasoning 100 %. I'm also not a collector and I prefer having one really good thing to having a bunch of mediocre things. Using a specific tool for a specific application just seems sensible to me. Same reason a musician might have more than one guitar, bass guitar, synthesizer, snare drum, etc. The HD600 do a lot of things extremely well, but with some tracks I might be missing a sense of space and/or excitement. Rarely, but I do. Plus, as I've said in my post above, the main use for the secondary pair would be movies and gaming, where the HD600 can be a bit constricted, a bit too clinical, a bit boring. I never feel that way about it when listening to music, but when the explosions hit, it's nice to have a little more rumble and spaciousness.

I read a lot of praise for the HD550 but I'm afraid they might be too close to the HD600 in some respects. Same reason I'm looking to sell my ATH-R70x. I can more easily justify keeping a second pair of headphones around when it's really different from the first pair.

soundstage in headphones is a myth, you just need to eq the hd600 to your own preferences for your own head, meaning use a sine sweep or something and find out nasty resonances which come due to HRTF and turn em down. HD600 has sufficient loudness capabilities for a normal person, you can put in a bass boost to your liking. Boosted treble, lack of bass and a dipped upper midrange creates a sense of distance in important harmonics (mids) and boosts/brings more attention to the reverb parts, boosting soundstage.

Soundstage in headphones and iems is an illusion, dont fall for the trap that one headphone is dramatically better, it's all in the FR at your ears. Openness may make a difference but it's vastly overshadowed by FR.

My take : If you enjoy your headphones, just stick with em, the grass is not greener on the other side. It's all placebo and confirmation bias, people buy expensive stuff and gaslight themselves into thinking there's sound quality improvements. If the HD600 is comfy, just eq it to your tastes, or get a pair of speakers if you want real soundstage. Something as simple as the Edifier MR3 is still available.

At the end of the day, find something nice sounding and comfy and stick with it. It doesn't get much better unless you're someone knee deep into the "audiophile" hobby and need to spend loads to feel anything.

Kind of agree, kind of disagree here. There's factors outside of FR that account for a perceived sense of space. The distance from the driver to the ear, driver angle, ear cup size, openness of the baffle... All of these also impact the FR for sure, but I've heard too many headphones and EQ'd too many headphones to totally discount these factors as being "just FR". A big thing for me also seems to be the psychoacoustic effect of the feel of the headphones on my head. The clampy, enclosing HD600 seem less open than a light, almost on-ear feeling, Audio-Technica R series headphone. I'm cognizant of that since I've read listener posit this factor in his excellent piece on the perception of soundstage, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work on me. Humans aren't rational beings 24/7, however much we want to be on this forum.

But even if it was just FR... I've spent lots of time in Peace getting my HD600s right where I want them. To my ears and taste, there's a limit to how big the bass shelf can get before the sound muddies up and loses definition. There's a limit to how much I can dip the midrange before they end up sounding hollow and lose that magic timbre. There's a limit to how much "air" you can add before they end up sounding a bit screechy. Because the HD600's balance is so good, everything you change about the EQ can easily throw it off. My EQ adds 4 dB down low, dips the mid bass and upper mids just a tad and makes a few cuts in the treble for my individual hearing. Aside from the bass boost, it's all really tame. No more than 2 dB per filter. I could make a second "gaming" preset in Peace where I completely bend the HD600's FR to be as fun and open as possible, but that seems... kind of wrong? It's like a poet writing ad copy to pay the bills. I'd rather let them do what they do best.

Again, I'm not looking for "better" and I'm not looking to spend more money for any perceived upgrade. I have a near-perfect screwdriver, but sometimes I also need a hammer. And the ATH-R50x is pretty great hammer that I could be totally happy with. I'm just curious what else might be out there.

 

[Jiraya369]

I get your reasoning 100 %. I'm also not a collector and I prefer having one really good thing to having a bunch of mediocre things. Using a specific tool for a specific application just seems sensible to me. Same reason a musician might have more than one guitar, bass guitar, synthesizer, snare drum, etc. The HD600 do a lot of things extremely well, but with some tracks I might be missing a sense of space and/or excitement. Rarely, but I do. Plus, as I've said in my post above, the main use for the secondary pair would be movies and gaming, where the HD600 can be a bit constricted, a bit too clinical, a bit boring. I never feel that way about it when listening to music, but when the explosions hit, it's nice to have a little more rumble and spaciousness.

I read a lot of praise for the HD550 but I'm afraid they might be too close to the HD600 in some respects. Same reason I'm looking to sell my ATH-R70x. I can more easily justify keeping a second pair of headphones around when it's really different from the first pair.

Kind of agree, kind of disagree here. There's factors outside of FR that account for a perceived sense of space. The distance from the driver to the ear, driver angle, ear cup size, openness of the baffle... All of these also impact the FR for sure, but I've heard too many headphones and EQ'd too many headphones to totally discount these factors as being "just FR". A big thing for me also seems to be the psychoacoustic effect of the feel of the headphones on my head. The clampy, enclosing HD600 seem less open than a light, almost on-ear feeling, Audio-Technica R series headphone. I'm cognizant of that since I've read listener posit this factor in his excellent piece on the perception of soundstage, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work on me. Humans aren't rational beings 24/7, however much we want to be on this forum.

But even if it was just FR... I've spent lots of time in Peace getting my HD600s right where I want them. To my ears and taste, there's a limit to how big the bass shelf can get before the sound muddies up and loses definition. There's a limit to how much I can dip the midrange before they end up sounding hollow and lose that magic timbre. There's a limit to how much "air" you can add before they end up sounding a bit screechy. Because the HD600's balance is so good, everything you change about the EQ can easily throw it off. My EQ adds 4 dB down low, dips the mid bass and upper mids just a tad and makes a few cuts in the treble for my individual hearing. Aside from the bass boost, it's all really tame. No more than 2 dB per filter. I could make a second "gaming" preset in Peace where I completely bend the HD600's FR to be as fun and open as possible, but that seems... kind of wrong? It's like a poet writing ad copy to pay the bills. I'd rather let them do what they do best.

Again, I'm not looking for "better" and I'm not looking to spend more money for any perceived upgrade. I have a near-perfect screwdriver, but sometimes I also need a hammer. And the ATH-R50x is pretty great hammer that I could be totally happy with. I'm just curious what else might be out there.

my point isnt that you cant go for what is fun, but again, FR makes most of the soundstage and i did say openness does play a role, but it's just not that big of a role. I have not tried the most acoustically open type of headphone, estats, but i have tried a fair few planars and hd800s, apart from FR i dont perceive much of a difference in "soundstage".

And im not telling you to fox the HD600, it's mostly correct and needs minor corrections, you're right, major corrections will ruin it and yes it can't take the biggest bass boost but it can be reasonably eq'd was my point. If you want bass then something else deffo would make more sense. And like, when you hit the limits of EQ, i ask you this, is the headphone the limiting factor or are your ears the issue? Is the bass bloated/the treble screechy cus of the headphone or your ears?

Basically man, you're trying to chase something that imo does not really exist and i dont really know what exactly you're looking for. If you're looking for something torturous i'd suggest the DT 770. If you want something that is "correct" and clean out of the box, DCA Noire X is an excellent candidate. But as you said man, comfort is a massive factor, so just look for that and then eq to taste.

Occam's Razor man, the best answer is the simplest. Find something comfy and nice sounding, eq to taste and enjoy it, soundstage is mostly an illusion from FR and some things from the headphone design aid a little bit but that's it. Don't underestimate the importance of a clean FR at your ears.

 

[IsaacOscar]

Basically man, you're trying to chase something that imo does not really exist and i dont really know what exactly you're looking for.

As I mentioned in another thread, I definitely do find that some headphones do soundstage better than others (or some other audible effect I am incorrectly describing as soundstage). In particular, I have not had success in using EQ to add soundstage to headphones that lack it. However, you may be right that EQ can do it, but getting a new pair of headphones can require less skill, time, and effort.

Occam's Razor man, the best answer is the simplest. Find something comfy and nice sounding, eq to taste and enjoy it

That's what @inselwissen is doing? Just with multiple headphones...

soundstage is mostly an illusion from FR and some things from the headphone design aid a little bit but that's it.

What about the distance of the drivers to your ears? I find having the headphones on less tight might increase soundstage (but it's really hard to tell, as it also reduces volume).

 

[inselwissen]

my point isnt that you cant go for what is fun, but again, FR makes most of the soundstage and i did say openness does play a role, but it's just not that big of a role. I have not tried the most acoustically open type of headphone, estats, but i have tried a fair few planars and hd800s, apart from FR i dont perceive much of a difference in "soundstage".

And im not telling you to fox the HD600, it's mostly correct and needs minor corrections, you're right, major corrections will ruin it and yes it can't take the biggest bass boost but it can be reasonably eq'd was my point. If you want bass then something else deffo would make more sense. And like, when you hit the limits of EQ, i ask you this, is the headphone the limiting factor or are your ears the issue? Is the bass bloated/the treble screechy cus of the headphone or your ears?

Basically man, you're trying to chase something that imo does not really exist and i dont really know what exactly you're looking for. If you're looking for something torturous i'd suggest the DT 770. If you want something that is "correct" and clean out of the box, DCA Noire X is an excellent candidate. But as you said man, comfort is a massive factor, so just look for that and then eq to taste.

Occam's Razor man, the best answer is the simplest. Find something comfy and nice sounding, eq to taste and enjoy it, soundstage is mostly an illusion from FR and some things from the headphone design aid a little bit but that's it. Don't underestimate the importance of a clean FR at your ears.

I feel we're talking over each other here. The whole point of this thread is that I'm not looking for something better than my HD600 but something different. My current front runner for the #2 slot, the ATH-R50x is a really close to what I want. It needed some correction, but the oratory1990 preset (Harman 2018) works super well for it after making individual adjustments.

Something Harman-tuned generally seems to a great choice as a companion to the HD600, which is shockingly close to a tilted DF curve out of the box. The EQ'd ATH-R50x has much more sub-bass, a tighter mid-bass, a slightly leaner midrange up to the upper mids and more extended treble. Still sounds natural to me, but it's more exciting than the HD600. Mission accomplished. My last remaining gripe is more about comfort than anything else. The pads are a tad small, but it's not really a problem.

 

[Jiraya369]

I feel we're talking over each other here. The whole point of this thread is that I'm not looking for something better than my HD600 but something different. My current front runner for the #2 slot, the ATH-R50x is a really close to what I want. It needed some correction, but the oratory1990 preset (Harman 2018) works super well for it after making individual adjustments.

Something Harman-tuned generally seems to a great choice as a companion to the HD600, which is shockingly close to a tilted DF curve out of the box. The EQ'd ATH-R50x has much more sub-bass, a tighter mid-bass, a slightly leaner midrange up to the upper mids and more extended treble. Still sounds natural to me, but it's more exciting than the HD600. Mission accomplished. My last remaining gripe is more about comfort than anything else. The pads are a tad small, but it's not really a problem.

does everything the HD600 does not do well

bass and soundstage

Listen mate, you talked about bass and soundstage, i talked about bass and soundstage. What other factor are you even talking about? I honestly dont understand what your goal is here. Something that does what the HD600 doesnt is a poor headphone for the most part, because the only thing it doesnt do well is bass and even that can be solved with EQ? I also suggested the DCA Noire X as it is a supremely smooth headphone, and suggested the DT 770 if you want something different, the latter is also quite comfy.

What exactly are you looking for? What even is the point of this post? It feels like I'm missing something

 

[Jiraya369]

getting a new pair of headphones can require less skill, time, and effort.

lol how are you so sure it'll be better? ofc if u pay more it'll automatically better ig

What about the distance of the drivers to your ears

doesnt really matter, just try to have a smooth and neutral-ish FR first, perhaps a dip in the 1-3khz region to boost perceived soundstage and then have an open feeling headphone, that's it.

Soundstage is a myth for the most part and all you're experiencing is placebo or something from the openness of the headphone. And whatever you're experiencing is still no comparison to even poor speakers. So again, just dont bother with soundstage as you're chasing your tail.

If you want to spend more on headphones sure but it's kinda funny that you just have these random excuses, there's always different variables and different things that change the exact answer you want but the general answer is still the same. Something that is tuned neutral for your ears, that feels open and is comfortable is the best headphone for you. Whatever else you're looking for is a nothingburger. 200hz and below is completely upto taste btw

 

[inselwissen]

Listen mate, you talked about bass and soundstage, i talked about bass and soundstage. What other factor are you even talking about? I honestly dont understand what your goal is here. Something that does what the HD600 doesnt is a poor headphone for the most part, because the only thing it doesnt do well is bass and even that can be solved with EQ? I also suggested the DCA Noire X as it is a supremely smooth headphone, and suggested the DT 770 if you want something different, the latter is also quite comfy.

What exactly are you looking for? What even is the point of this post? It feels like I'm missing something

I don't understand why you're getting so worked up about this. You quoted me explicitly stating what I wanted and that I got very close with the ATH-R50x. Genuinely wondering what's hard to understand about my query here. I've already arrived at a workable solution, just curious what other headphones I might have overlooked. I like trying things, I buy used, I sell the stuff for what I paid for it, it's fun and it costs me nothing but a little bit of my time.

Aside from our disagreement about soundstage, what's so controversial here? Your suggestions are sound and appreciated. Hadn't thought of the DT770, but that might also be a good choice (with EQ). Not a fan of Beyerdynamic treble, but the R50x is plenty bright and some cuts up in the mid treble are really all it needs. We don't have to have any forum beef about this.

I don't agree that not sounding like an HD600 is an immediate disqualification. People like all sorts of sound signatures that are not dead-on neutral. I myself perceive Harman Over Ear (especially 2013/2018) as a bit lean in the mid bass and just a touch shouty in the upper mids while others feel it's neutral. I'm much more of a tilted DF guy when it comes to what I hear as "natural", but I can appreciate Harman OE for certain things. The transition from bass to midrange sounds a little wonky to me, but it leads to punchy, tight bass, for example. As much as we like our target curves on here, let's not kid ourselves that there's one true solution for every set of ears, every taste and every scenario.

Picture "tonal neutrality" as a spectrum from "neutral and accurate" to "exciting". The HD600 is on one end, especially the way I have it equalized. To my ears, it sounds completely natural and I love that about it. It will probably stay my #1 headphone and get the vast majority of my music listening time. But it's a bit boring for playing videogames, watching movies and certain tracks/genres where I might want a bit more coloration and excitement. These colorations are also where much of the impression of spaciousness comes from. We agree on that, right?

And you're right. I could solve that "problem" via EQ. I could add more bass, I could dip the upper mids more, I could extend the treble further to add that sense of excitement, but in my experience, there's always a trade-off between fun and neutrality, between space and timbre. And I don't like doing that to the HD600. I've tried adding all that stuff, equalizing the HD600 to Harman OE, trying various versions of a HiFiMAN-like 1,5 KHz dip and my impression is always that it's not meant to do that. You always lose some of the magic.

So instead of twisting the HD600 in knots, I'm looking for a second pair of headphones that is further away from the "neutral and accurate" end of the neutrality spectrum than the HD600 is. Not all the way at the "exciting" end, I can't stand a sharp V-shaped sound signature or a bassy, warm mess. Just a little more colored, a little more adapt at Harman bass, a little more extended in the treble. Bonus points if its mechanical design tricks my brain into a feeling of spaciousness. I know it's a psychoacoustic effect, but its affecting me nonetheless. Science hasn't yet discovered a way of listening to a pair of headphones without wearing it on your head.

I think we might have a fundamental ideological mismatch here. You think that anything deviating from "neutral for the person's ears" is inherently worse. And I don't even disagree for the most part. But once you have the neutral baseline at your disposal, why not add something more colored that's more fun for certain applications?

 

[Jiraya369]

I don't understand why you're getting so worked up about this

idk why you're taking it all so personally, i was genuinely confused.

And i did tell you you can eq, you dont seem to want that for some odd reason, i told you about the 770 and you forgot about it to make it seem like im being weird or sumn. We're in agreement that something away from neutral will generally sound worse so idek what you are still looking for if you can trash out your hd600 to your heart's content or as i said, get something like the dt 770. You're only now saying you cant stand v shaped stuff, i mean the more you go away from the HD600 the closer you get to that signature, and if you're looking for something so precise that's not a proper v shape/a weird and esoteric warm tuning but rather something that's just a fair departure from the hd600, eq is again the answer.

It's just confusing to me what you're even looking for when the best solution is not good enough for you, it seems you just want to spend on something else. In which case I'd look for the comfiest set available and without auditioning you just wont know for sure. I'd have recc'd the Sony MV1 as a decent alternative since it has bass and excitement but too v-shaped for u it seems.


you do you man im just lost lol

 

[inselwissen]

idk why you're taking it all so personally, i was genuinely confused.

It's the tone. You do understand that starting a post with "listen man" reads aggressive? That's stuff you say right before starting a bar fight.

And i did tell you you can eq, you dont seem to want that for some odd reason, i told you about the 770 and you forgot about it to make it seem like im being weird or sumn. We're in agreement that something away from neutral will generally sound worse so idek what you are still looking for if you can trash out your hd600 to your heart's content or as i said, get something like the dt 770. You're only now saying you cant stand v shaped stuff, i mean the more you go away from the HD600 the closer you get to that signature, and if you're looking for something so precise that's not a proper v shape/a weird and esoteric warm tuning but rather something that's just a fair departure from the hd600, eq is again the answer.

It's just confusing to me what you're even looking for when the best solution is not good enough for you, it seems you just want to spend on something else. In which case I'd look for the comfiest set available and without auditioning you just wont know for sure. I'd have recc'd the Sony MV1 as a decent alternative since it has bass and excitement but too v-shaped for u it seems.


you do you man im just lost lol

You seem to be deliberately misunderstanding my posts. And if you're not, you are ignoring all of the nuance here. I never said I'm anti EQ, never said I can't stand all sorts of V-shaped tunings, never said that I think pure neutrality is always better. That's you making assumptions and confusing yourself in the process. No malice here, just my observation from your posts in this thread so far.

If you're really interested in understanding my thoughts, let me try again.

I love EQ. I EQ all my headphones, but I find it's easier and less time consuming not to try to make them something they are not. The HD600 with just a touch of EQ is perfect the way it is for my main use case for it. That use case being listening to music and little else. It's got clarity, instrument separation and a strikingly natural presentation. 10/10, will always own one.

I also EQ the R50x, but to something more akin to Harman OE 2018, which to my ears reads as a little V-shaped and excited. I very much like it that way for my main use case for it. That use case being mostly movies, shows and playing video games. It was really easy to get the headphone to this place and, to my ears, it sounds much better in that role than the HD600. It's probably user error more than anything, but I can't for the life of me get the sort of big, tight bass out of the HD600 that I get with the R50x. I'm actually cutting bass with these headphones, can you imagine? Their stock sound is far too V-shaped for my taste, but with EQ they are spot on for what I want them to do. This sound does not read as neutral to me, but I like it that way. It has colorations I find pleasing. It has colorations that add to a sense of space that I like, that immerse me in the content I'm watching or the game I'm playing. The HD600 does not do this as well, whichever way I try to EQ it.

This solution is good enough for me. More than good enough, in fact. I'd give it a 9/10, but I'm still looking for that extra 10 %, mainly in comfort. I don't think this is me being unreasonable, it's just me knowing what kind of experience want. And yes, the MV1 is on top of the shortlist. From the FR it seems to be similarly easy to EQ as the R50x and from what I remember it might be more comfortable. Only prolonged use can tell me that, so I'll probably buy one when a reasonably priced used one comes my way.

 

[Steven Holt]

I'm going to catch flak for this, but the Grado SR225e are excellent headphones as far as clarity and detail goes. Yes, I know that they can be a little bright, but you can't have everything. And they beat Audio Technica hands down IMO (repeat, IMO)

 

[bargainguy]

Funny, I keep coming back to the K702.

I don't EQ these, but for my listening, headphone amplification is mandatory.

Without it, bass is light and high mids / low treble can get a little strident. It's OK but nothing special.

With it, bass tightens up considerably, the high mids & low treble smooth out and localization seems easier / more precise.

I couldn't believe the amount of difference amplification made. Wish I would have tried that sooner.

 

[Berwhale]

I have the HD 660S as my main headphones (driven by a Topping DX5 II), but I use a pair of HD 560S, with a Geekria boom mic cable for conference calls and the odd bit of gaming driven by a Soundblaster X4. It works well and sounds great - people have commented that the mic quality is excellent as well. The X4 is connected to a USB switch so I can flip it between my work laptop and personal PC easily.

 

[oozlum]

Have you considered

Shure SRH1840

or

STAX SRS-X1000 (SR-X1 + SRM-270s)

?

 

[inselwissen]

Update: I don't have any measurement equipment on hand, but the driver volume of the HE400se seems to be off by about 3 dB at 1 KHz according to my ears. I amended my EQ profile and reduced the preamp gain of the left channel by 3 dB. Now the stereo imaging is excellent and music sounds like it should. I may even enjoy the EQ'd sound more than the Edition XS (also with EQ). It has a smoother treble response so there's fewer peaks to tone down. I sure as heck enjoy the comfort more.

Still not sure about the weight for long-term use, but the HE400se is back in the running now. It's really good. So good it's kind of screwing with my plan to reduce this collection to only two open-back headphones. I paid just 50 € incl. shipping for my pair so there isn't a lot of money tied up in it. Gotta give it some time, I guess. Maybe it won't see any use in practice.

I'm going to catch flak for this, but the Grado SR225e are excellent headphones as far as clarity and detail goes. Yes, I know that they can be a little bright, but you can't have everything. And they beat Audio Technica hands down IMO (repeat, IMO)

I've spent a decent amount time with the SR60 and SR80 and filed them under "not for me", but it may be because I only heard their stock sound. I'm not opposed to on-ear designs and it might be fun to experiment with the myriad mods, especially the ones meant to make them more comfortable. But I don't think their stock bass response is that promising for the immersive Harman bass I'm after. AutoEQ profiles boost the sub bass by around 12 dB to reach Harman levels. Maybe they can take that, but I'm doubtful.

I think a friend of mine has an SR60e. I'll at least give it a try. Thanks!

Also, please, don't discount Audio-Technica. Maybe you've only heard the more ubiquitous closed-backs. The R series is amazing.

Funny, I keep coming back to the K702.

I don't EQ these, but for my listening, headphone amplification is mandatory.

Without it, bass is light and high mids / low treble can get a little strident. It's OK but nothing special.

With it, bass tightens up considerably, the high mids & low treble smooth out and localization seems easier / more precise.

I couldn't believe the amount of difference amplification made. Wish I would have tried that sooner.

I don't have any heavy hitter amplification. Most of my desk listening time is spent running off the MOTU M2's headphone out. It's a bit weedy in terms of power, but it seems powerful enough for the headphones I've had so far. Even with ample negative preamp gain I usually end up at around 1 o'clock for my less sensitive phones. Sometimes I also use the FiiO KA11 dongle as a DAC/amp with my PC. That thing is considerably more powerful and has measured exceptionally well in Amir's review on this site. I don't notice any difference that couldn't be attributed to suboptimal level matching. Not with the planars, not with the HD600, not with the K702. Both devices deliver enough clean gain for my needs and their differing noise levels, filter roll-offs etc. are beyond my hearing ability. Could it be different output impedances you're hearing? What's your unamplified source?

I felt the K702 was okay, but the treble is a little peaky for me. As stated above, I had to do some surgical cuts at around 5,6 KHz, just below 8 KHz and around 12 KHz to get the treble under control and it still sounds a little grainy to me sometimes. Getting the bass and mids to a good place was really easy, though. Nicely spacious presentation, too. Easy to enjoy if the treble aligns with your hearing and preferences.

I have the HD 660S as my main headphones (driven by a Topping DX5 II), but I use a pair of HD 560S, with a Geekria boom mic cable for conference calls and the odd bit of gaming driven by a Soundblaster X4. It works well and sounds great - people have commented that the mic quality is excellent as well. The X4 is connected to a USB switch so I can flip it between my work laptop and personal PC easily.

Added to the list, with the caveat that it might also be too similar to the HD600, like the HD550 mentioned above. I never thought of the 500 series as "fun", though they present as much more spacious than the 600 series. I'll get my hands on either and just try to make them fun, I guess. They are very comfortable for me!

Have you considered

Shure SRH1840

or

STAX SRS-X1000 (SR-X1 + SRM-270s)

?

I don't know if an estat would fit the role as well as a dynamic driver or planar headphone. This is about sitting at my desk, having both headphones on hand and switching one for the other when I want to play games or watch a movie for a while. Not exactly the best use case for an estat if I don't want to keep it powered on all the time.

The Shure graphs very well, though. Nicely extended bass response. Added to the list, thanks!

 

[Berwhale]

Added to the list, with the caveat that it might also be too similar to the HD600, like the HD550 mentioned above. I never thought of the 500 series as "fun", though they present as much more spacious than the 600 series. I'll get my hands on either and just try to make them fun, I guess. They are very comfortable for me!

Sennheiser have 20% off refurbished on their European outlet stores at the moment (I bought my HD660S from the outlet 5 years ago, they were in mint condition). For example...

From the German store...

HD 560S Refurbished

The HD 560S indulges the audiophile evaluating their music’s entire journey through the audio path. This open-back headphone is tuned to reveal the truth in your music without sacrificing the gratifying bass response needed to reproduce complex modern music—all at a breakthrough value. Its...

eu.sennheiser-hearing.com

But they are even cheaper in the UK (for once!), £79 = 91€...

Refurbished Headphones

Refurbished by Sennheiser Score noteworthy deals on our best-selling headphones with manufacturer-Refurbished examples. What's more, each Refurbished headphone purchased is a further reduction in e-waste and a nod to sustainability.

uk.sennheiser-hearing.com

 

[IsaacOscar]

I've already arrived at a workable solution, just curious what other headphones I might have overlooked. I like trying things, I buy used, I sell the stuff for what I paid for it, it's fun and it costs me nothing but a little bit of my time.

Ooh, I never thought of this! So I've now just bought the HD 600 used for AU$340, and then I'll sell them or my HD 550. When I get them I'll let you know how they compare.

(I also have a HD 560s I want to sell, but have been a bit lazy).

 

[inselwissen]

Ooh, I never thought of this! So I've now just bought the HD 600 used for AU$340, and then I'll sell them or my HD 550. When I get them I'll let you know how they compare.

(I also have a HD 560s I want to sell, but have been a bit lazy).

Buying used rules. And it makes me feel like less of a filthy overconsumer when I get hyperfocused on finding THE BEST like I am right now.

Enjoy the HD600! I'd love a comparison between all three if you have the time.