Truthear x Crinacle Zero:RED IEM Review

[GaryH]

 

[doug2761]

Do you have a link for that eq post please? (or do you mean you would like him to do one?)

It's in the video that he posted.

 

[amirm]

What the heck is he doing? He is eq'ing his own IEMs with the measurements of RED??? He can't do that for all the reasons we have mentioned: the measurements lose accuracy especially above 10 kHz. And some of his tracks are real head scratchers:

How does he know the real tonality of this completely looped and synthesized track?

 

[TRDK]

 

[GaryH]

Viewer beware: headphones.com is one of Crinacle's sponsors.

 

[OnLyTNT]

But I JUST got the Blues...

I got two of them damn it Will I buy red ones? Most probably... Should I thank Amir for the review? I'm so confused right now

 

[Black98]

Red line is one of my zero:red sample's measurement by 45CA-10;Blue line is a lot of zero:red sample's AVG measurement by BK4195-Q. Just for reference only.

 

[Robbo99999]

I feel a déjà Zéro vu coming on As discussed in the original Zero thread, none of the measurements shown for that or this IEM actually use the exact same set-up as Harman did during the IE target creation (RA0045 coupler + GR0408 metal canal extension). Of course it would be beyond foolish to judge the accuracy of any genuine GRAS set-up by comparing it to a load of fake knock-off clone couplers and conclude the former as an erroneous outlier, as is evident from analysis by AutoEQ's Jaakko Pasanen of the response errors of Crinacle's fake RA0045 compared to Oratory's professional measurements using a genuine GRAS RA0045 for many IEMs (not including the Zeros though, and which yes, includes unit variation, but that's unlikely to explain all this variance, which notably trends towards an underestimation in the upper-mids / lower-treble):

View attachment 287081

And Crinacle's own comparison of this RA0045 clone to his genuine RA040X with a random IEM shows its response below the RA040X in the lower-treble (which itself likely underestimates the lower-treble compared to a genuine RA0045, see below, so the clone's error to the latter here is likely even more than this):

So after disregarding all the fake coupler measurements due to unproven accuracy for the Zeros (in fact potential inaccuracy from the data above), what are we left with? ASR's vs Resolve's measurements. If the charge is the former is less accurate in relation to Harman's IE-target set-up (overestimating the upper-mids / lower-treble), then this needs to be demonstrated empirically with a direct comparison to such a RA0045 + GR0408 measurement, not just claiming it so due to its use of a pinna via an invalid, convoluted hand-waiving comparison with DIY-modded fake knock-off couplers and pinnae. It could well be the case that Resolve's measurements using the 'damped' (there's a clue) RA040X + metal canal underestimate the lower-treble (as Crinacle's potentially but for different reasons), which has indeed been demonstrated by Brent Butterworth with the RA040X + GR0408 for other IEMs:

It could also well be the case that the above underestimation error of the RA040X is (approximately) canceled out by a potential overestimation error from the pinna, resulting in ASR's measurements being serendipitously more accurate to Harman's IE-target set-up. We don't know. The only way to settle all this is with measurements of the Zeros with the latter genuine RA0045, which Oratory uses.

Cool, nice post, so Amir would just need the GR0408 metal canal extension to combine with his existing RA0045 coupler (he has that within his GRAS right?) to verify if there really were differences between pinna and metal canal extension? But I guess he would need to disassemble his GRAS to use it's coupler with the metal canal extension? I see the point you're making about it being somewhat invalid to make the comparisons @MayaTlab was making earlier as he is comparing cloned couplers with non-cloned couplers.

EDIT: @AdamG247 , only just now seen your following post, hopefully this one is not too off-topic

Truthear x Crinacle Zero:RED IEM Review

how about truthear hexa compare to this? https://crinacle.com/graphs/iems/graphtool/?share=IEF_Neutral_2020_Target,Hexa,ZeroRed_S1

www.audiosciencereview.com

EDIT#2: actually GaryH I think you'd said Amir is using the GRAS RA0402, so that's not the same anyway. I suppose Amir could do pinna vs metal extension though to see if there was a difference, eventhough it's still not exactly the same as RA0045 and GR0408 metal canal extension that was used by Harman.

 

[MayaTlab]

I feel a déjà Zéro vu coming on As discussed in the original Zero thread, none of the measurements shown for that or this IEM actually use the exact same set-up as Harman did during the IE target creation (RA0045 coupler + GR0408 metal canal extension). Of course it would be beyond foolish to judge the accuracy of any genuine GRAS set-up by comparing it to a load of fake knock-off clone couplers and conclude the former as an erroneous outlier, as is evident from analysis by AutoEQ's Jaakko Pasanen of the response errors of Crinacle's fake RA0045 compared to Oratory's professional measurements using a genuine GRAS RA0045 for many IEMs (not including the Zeros though, and which yes, includes unit variation, but that's unlikely to explain all this variance, which notably trends towards an underestimation in the upper-mids / lower-treble):

View attachment 287081

And Crinacle's own comparison of this RA0045 clone to his genuine RA040X with a random IEM shows its response below the RA040X in the lower-treble (which itself likely underestimates the lower-treble compared to a genuine RA0045, see below, so the clone's error to the latter here is likely even more than this):

So after disregarding all the fake coupler measurements due to unproven accuracy for the Zeros (in fact potential inaccuracy from the data above), what are we left with? ASR's vs Resolve's measurements. If the charge is the former is less accurate in relation to Harman's IE-target set-up (overestimating the upper-mids / lower-treble), then this needs to be demonstrated empirically with a direct comparison to such a RA0045 + GR0408 measurement, not just claiming it so due to its use of a pinna via an invalid, convoluted hand-waiving comparison with DIY-modded fake knock-off couplers and pinnae. It could well be the case that Resolve's measurements using the 'damped' (there's a clue) RA040X + metal canal underestimate the lower-treble (as Crinacle's potentially but for different reasons), which has indeed been demonstrated by Brent Butterworth with the RA040X + GR0408 for other IEMs:

It could also well be the case that the above underestimation error of the RA040X is (approximately) canceled out by a potential overestimation error from the pinna, resulting in ASR's measurements being serendipitously more accurate to Harman's IE-target set-up. We don't know. The only way to settle all this is with measurements of the Zeros with the latter genuine RA0045, which Oratory uses.

It's a little sad that you seem so invested in being a keyboard warrior that you don't seem to follow your own thinking to its own conclusion ? Why not actually digitise the traces you quote and actually look at the magnitude differences ?

We do have more data on RA0402 to RA0045 transfer curves, for example from GRAS themselves or CSGlinux, both perhaps a bit more coherent with the difference in transfer impedance between the couplers than Brent's anyway.

What do you think logically happens if we add two and two together and apply these transfer curves to the Zero's measurements *duh* ?

@Black98's data makes this discussion a bit of a moot point anyway, if what you want is something closer to the specifications Harman used.

Hopefully next time you'll be more interested in actually looking at the data you yourself quote to provide a more constructive discussion, as you made quite a few good points in that post. For example I'm quite grateful that you incited me to give a look at SoundStageSolo's RA0045 vs RA0402 + KB5000 pinna comparisons, the lack of a constant transfer function makes me quite a good deal more hesitant to think that what I personally observed would systematically apply to all IEMs in the same way and makes me think that I'm probably wrong to fix too much attention on the coupler to KB501x (clone or original) pinna attachment issue.

 

[MayaTlab]

The metal ear canal extension seems like the more bonafide method then,

Maybe... but I think that it's quite interesting actually that we get some degree of variance in terms of 711 fixtures, it could very well be that the use of the pinna happens to result in a measurement for the Red Zero, that, if it were to be virtually reproduced via Harman's method, would be a closer match to how they actually behave in people's ears. Or not .

and yes it would be interesting for Amir to do that work you suggested to see what's going on.

I'd be quite curious to see that indeed. Personally I'm also interested to fiddle with the pinna I have to try to have better understanding in regards to why that happens, but maybe this is a fool's errand and a singular cause won't be found.

 

[Jimbob54]

What the heck is he doing? He is eq'ing his own IEMs with the measurements of RED??? He can't do that for all the reasons we have mentioned: the measurements lose accuracy especially above 10 kHz. And some of his tracks are real head scratchers:

How does he know the real tonality of this completely looped and synthesized track?

I dont know what is worse- someone opining how a headphone sounds just by listening to an existing HP EQd to its measurements like this or someone reaching the conclusion just from (not huge) deviations from a known target on a graph.

The fact he is an utter drama queen in the video, that he seems to spend a lot of his content time on Youtube s**tting on Crinacle in an unpleasant way and generally being less than constructive makes for a rather unpleasant and unhelpful overall experience. I suspect the market will not be flooded with Sharur collabs in the near future.

EDIT- As Amir is explaining further down the thread why the virtual review is nonsense, where I do see some (not much though) merit is if one is looking to acquire some new IEM but unable to audition. Some broad adjustments between your current IEM and the one you are looking at might give an indication if you like the overall tonality of your proposed acquisition. But at that point you probably are just as well looking at the graphs.

Crinacle refers to this approach for existing Zero owners to adjust towards the Red. Given fit etc is identical, I can see how this might be kind of useful, even if not necessarily an accurate representation of how the actual Red you receive will sound in your ears.

The cynic might say Sharur used the virtualisation method here solely so he could shit on another Crinacle collab at the peak of the hype to generate more YT views for his own channel . Might also explain his resurrection here recently.....

 

[juliangst]

He already did a video response to Amir‘s complaints.
I’m getting some popcorn

 

[markanini]

Viewer beware: headphones.com is one of Crinacle's sponsors.

This is stated on the top of every page on Crinacles own website. I'm pointing this out because all commercial actors in the space should show this level of transparency.

 

[Blorg]

Viewer beware: headphones.com is one of Crinacle's sponsors.

In terms of they supported his graph database as a community outreach and advertise on his site. They don't sell this IEM, or any other Crinacle collab IEM. The channel has editorial independence and has a track record of being perfectly able to criticize stuff they do sell, and often do laud stuff they don't. One of the few sources I actually find reliable. One of the few that will actually call out stuff that is bad, most reviewers won't do that. Headphones.com do it, even when they sell the very product they are criticizing.

EDIT: example, Headphones.com used to sell Campfire. They also used to give Campfire (outside of the original Andromeda) pretty consistently bad reviews. Campfire didn't like this. Headphones.com dropped Campfire as a brand rather than interfere with the editorial independence of their reviewers.

 

[staticV3]

Viewer beware: headphones.com is one of Crinacle's sponsors.

Just thinking things through logically:

• Headphones.com pay Crinacle to advertise them in his videos
• Headphones.com do not carry the Truthear Zero or Zero:Red. In fact, they don't carry any Truthear product.
• In theory, does Headphones.com have anything to gain from shilling the Red?

 

[markanini]

Just thinking things through logically:

• Headphones.com pay Crinacle to advertise them in his videos
• Headphones.com do not carry the Truthear Zero or Zero:Red. In fact, they don't carry any Truthear product.
• In theory, does Headphones.com have anything to gain from shilling the Red?

The value of Red for Headphones.com would have to be as an avenue to more costly products they carry, by association. A number of them have indeed been promoted by Crinacle if you check.

 

[Robbo99999]

It's a little sad that you seem so invested in being a keyboard warrior that you don't seem to follow your own thinking to its own conclusion ? Why not actually digitise the traces you quote and actually look at the magnitude differences ?

We do have more data on RA0402 to RA0045 transfer curves, for example from GRAS themselves or CSGlinux, both perhaps a bit more coherent with the difference in transfer impedance between the couplers than Brent's anyway.

What do you think logically happens if we add two and two together and apply these transfer curves to the Zero's measurements *duh* ?

View attachment 287263

@Black98's data makes this discussion a bit of a moot point anyway, if what you want is something closer to the specifications Harman used.

Hopefully next time you'll be more interested in actually looking at the data you yourself quote to provide a more constructive discussion, as you made quite a few good points in that post. For example I'm quite grateful that you incited me to give a look at SoundStageSolo's RA0045 vs RA0402 + KB5000 pinna comparisons, the lack of a constant transfer function makes me quite a good deal more hesitant to think that what I personally observed would systematically apply to all IEMs in the same way and makes me think that I'm probably wrong to fix too much attention on the coupler to KB501x (clone or original) pinna attachment issue.

So really it's only the 13kHz resonance peak that is removed by the RA0402 in comparison to Harman's orignal RA0045? The 13kHz resonance peak is an error I infer, so that's good that the RA0402 removes that. The GRAS pdf link suggests that they are identical below that frequency, so it seems RA0402 is in fact better, and any 13kHz resonance peak is not taken into account in any of the Harman Target Curves anyway, so my cursory view is that RA0402 is valid for use with Harman Curve.

EDIT: either way it might still be interesting to see the effect of the metal canal extension vs using the pinna when measuring IEM's, as you mentioned earlier, because that's the way Harman created their IEM curves, with the metal extension.

 

[PeteL]

Just thinking things through logically:

• Headphones.com pay Crinacle to advertise them in his videos
• Headphones.com do not carry the Truthear Zero or Zero:Red. In fact, they don't carry any Truthear product.
• In theory, does Headphones.com have anything to gain from shilling the Red?

There are a million ways on both side where it cam be mutually financially beneficial to not take a shot at who you are sponsoring, if who you are sponsoring reviews stuff that you sell. But assuming anything unless we are an Insider who are aware of their mutual agreements, both official and verbal understandings is unfair and akin to conspiracy theories. Now going the other way and think that this is non existent in the Industry is also a bit naive. Don't bite the hand that feeds you is still a very universally understood concept in business. Marketing is also business, It is not limited to manufacturer--retailer relations. But all part of a grander scheme It is normally not good practice to lose credibility in order to move more products, the gains can turn to losses, but bottom line, we don't know.

 

[Robbo99999]

Viewer beware: headphones.com is one of Crinacle's sponsors.

Just thinking things through logically:

• Headphones.com pay Crinacle to advertise them in his videos
• Headphones.com do not carry the Truthear Zero or Zero:Red. In fact, they don't carry any Truthear product.
• In theory, does Headphones.com have anything to gain from shilling the Red?

The value of Red for Headphones.com would have to be as an avenue to more costly products they carry, by association. A number of them have indeed been promoted by Crinacle if you check.

There are a million ways on both side where it cam be mutually financially beneficial to not take a shot at who you are sponsoring, if who you are sponsoring reviews stuff that you sell. But assuming anything unless we are an Insider who are aware of their mutual agreements, both official and verbal understandings is unfair and akin to conspiracy theories. Now going the other way and think that this is non existent in the Industry is also a bit naive. Don't bite the hand that feeds you is still a very universally understood concept in business. Marketing is also business, It is not limited to manufacturer--retailer relations. But all part of a grander scheme It is normally not good practice to lose credibility in order to move more products, the gains can turn to losses, but bottom line, we don't know.

Although I think it's probably fair to say the Truthear X Crinacle Zero Red is a darn good IEM regardless, and for a fair price! We're probably not gonna dispute that!

 

[Matias]

I ordered the 2 newer ones (Blessing 3, Red) and can't wait to compare all 4 of them.

What the measurements tell so far:
- Red is Dusk without the slight sibilance.
- B3 is 7Hz Salnotes Zero with more even treble/air.