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Troels Graveson Faital-3WC-15

Mart68

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I thinking of commissioning a build of this TG loudspeaker


Cost will be around £5K GBP

What does the panel think? Are there alternatives I should consider? For various reasons I'm only looking at passive not active speakers. Any input is appreciated.
 
Even though I respect Gravesen's skills, I would have some problems making a decision about this speaker.

1) There are no distortion measurements.
2) Frequency response charts appear to be excessively smoothed.
3) The type of cabinet shown may (or may not) have audible resonances.
4) There is no indication of dispersion characteristics. Both the vertical and horizontal "sweet spot" may (or may not) be quite restrictive.
5) From the information presented, it is difficult to predict room response.

I have had contact with Gravesen (some years ago), and he stated that he had measurements that he did not usually publish on his site. If you were considering dropping such a sizeable sum of money on his design, I would contact him first for more detailed information. He seems quite helpful.

Jim
 
I thinking of commissioning a build of this TG loudspeaker


Cost will be around £5K GBP

What does the panel think? Are there alternatives I should consider? For various reasons I'm only looking at passive not active speakers. Any input is appreciated.
Did the 15" Tannoy project come to nought, or have I missed a few too many years of your audio journey? :)

It does seem in the UK, that getting really decent void-free plywood is very difficult if not impossible. The random voids can affect how the enclosure performs, although the sheets as shown (I've not yet read the text) are so thick it may not matter...

I'm sure it'll be a fun listen once completed, with perhaps a 'bigger heart' to the perceived 'tone' over your large Focals?
 
Even though I respect Gravesen's skills, I would have some problems making a decision about this speaker.

1) There are no distortion measurements.
2) Frequency response charts appear to be excessively smoothed.
3) The type of cabinet shown may (or may not) have audible resonances.
4) There is no indication of dispersion characteristics. Both the vertical and horizontal "sweet spot" may (or may not) be quite restrictive.
5) From the information presented, it is difficult to predict room response.

I have had contact with Gravesen (some years ago), and he stated that he had measurements that he did not usually publish on his site. If you were considering dropping such a sizeable sum of money on his design, I would contact him first for more detailed information. He seems quite helpful.

Jim
Thanks for your input. Yes all these are reservations I have, so it is something of leap in the dark.
I can get the builder to ask TG for any supplemental measurements, since he knows him. Good suggestion, thank you.

I have some confidence based on having had a listen to some of the other TG designs, but it's not 100%. I can afford to make a mistake but I'd rather not!
 
Did the 15" Tannoy project come to nought, or have I missed a few too many years of your audio journey? :)

It does seem in the UK, that getting really decent void-free plywood is very difficult if not impossible. The random voids can affect how the enclosure performs, although the sheets as shown (I've not yet read the text) are so thick it may not matter...

I'm sure it'll be a fun listen once completed, with perhaps a 'bigger heart' to the perceived 'tone' over your large Focals?
I suppose they will at least be different if not better. :)

I'll still keep the Focals. Every time I listen to them I think 'You don't need new speakers' :)
 
Typical voids in plywood make no difference to how it sounds, they are minute. Choosing Marine ply over diy ply might make a difference.
 
Hello,

I made these speakers a few months ago and I am not fully satisfied with them.
They sometimes seem "Shrill", it is with the piano that I have the most discomfort.
If I had not read other reviews from disappointed manufacturers, I would have thought I had made a mistake in the assembly of the components.
Some blame the BE tweeter but I think the problem comes from the high midrange, the filtering and maybe a little its sound signature.
I am not a technician and fortunately someone offered me his help (remotely.).
You should read this entire thread before you decide:


On the other hand, they have an impressive level of detail and precision.
The bass is clean and precise, the drums are incredible.
Once rebalanced, they will be excellent speakers, I feel like I'm not far from it and I hope to get there, but my lack of skills doesn't help me, fortunately someone helps me.
 
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Hello,

I made these speakers a few months ago and I am not fully satisfied with them.
They sometimes seem "Shrill", it is with the piano that I have the most discomfort.
If I had not read other reviews from disappointed manufacturers, I would have thought I had made a mistake in the assembly of the components.
Some blame the BE tweeter but I think the problem comes from the high midrange, the filtering and maybe a little its sound signature.
I am not a technician and fortunately someone offered me his help (remotely.).
You should read this entire thread before you decide:


On the other hand, they have an impressive level of detail and precision.
The bass is clean and precise, the drums are incredible.
Once rebalanced, they will be excellent speakers, I feel like I'm not far from it and I hope to get there, but my lack of skills doesn't help me, fortunately someone helps me.

The "review" (if it can be called that) that you cite is a classic example of subjectivist worthlessness.

I am not saying that something couldn't be wrong with your speakers, but the first recourse would be to use a mic like UMIK and REW to check whether there are tangible signs of error. Notice the change in the content of posts after post #4 in the link you provided.

There are two threads on UMIK and REW, generously provided by the owner of this site, that can guide you:


The second recourse would be to send the results to Gravesen in an e-mail, asking his advice.

Many times, a listener becomes accustomed to a certain response in their room, and a change is not only noticeable, but annoying. The reason for this is that we listen with our brains, and not our ears. Ears don't change from day to day and month to month, but our brains not only can, but do.
Not only that, but inaccurate equipment can mask the shrillness of recordings that actually contain "shrill" information. Remember - an accurate playback system provides you with whatever is actually on the recording, which is sometimes not what you expect.

You really should read about the effects of cognitive biases, also. That way you may get an idea of the tricks that you brain can pull on you, so that you know what you're up against:


And the reason that the brains uses these tricks" is called "heuristics". The reason they exist is explained here:


Good luck! :)

Jim

p.s. - you haven't mentioned the amplifier. Which amplifier are you using?
 
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Hello Jim,
I find that calling my subjectivitivist criticism "useless" is very unfriendly.
I came across this thread by chance and I read someone who is about to spend a large sum of money and time to make these speakers.
I know that I and others have found the same problem, I warn him of it, as I would have liked to be.
I do not have the skills and equipment to make objective measurements and do not claim to hold the truth.
I am almost 50 years old, but my ears still work quite well, and when certain piano notes force me to lower the volume which is not incredibly high, I tell myself that something is wrong.
The subjectivist/objectivist debate does not interest me, the debates on the internet do not interest me from a general point of view, life is complicated enough as it is.
The only purpose of my answer was to say: "be careful before spending your money, there are disappointed people with these speakers and they say so."
To conclude, I would say that usually people who spend a lot of money on equipment tend to find it great at all costs (unconsciously) rather than making an objective review.
I was just passing by, I'm already gone, have a good evening.

PS: I'm not an English speaker, I use a translator.
 
Distortion is not really the concern. Not only is the link between harmonic distortion and poor sound quality very weak, these are pro drivers and should be able to play very loud.

The issue with this design is the directivity mismatch between mid and tweeter. I would either go big and do 'thr loudspeaker' or do a design with the 8 inch high efficiency driver he came up with.

Having said that, none of these designs have adequate measurements, so you may consider a diy project that has those. The asr directiva has a passive version, as do the heissman acoustics projects, which are very well documented.
 
I find that calling my subjectivitivist criticism "useless" is very unfriendly.
Welcome to ASR :-)
While the tone might be a tad direct here, we will steer you clear of the worst audiophool myths, like speaker burn in or difference in amplifier sound like the place you came from. That is not helpful at all. And the point is, it is hard to help you without measurements.
 
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I do not have the skills and equipment to make objective measurements and do not claim to hold the truth.
The point of this site is to allow people to get the skills.
A measurement mic costs less than $100, is worth more than a finished loudspeaker to many of us. While this isn't truth, it sure cuts through the nonsense in these online reviews.
I find that calling my subjectivitivist criticism "useless" is very unfriendly.
Jim wasn't calling your 'criticism' "useless", he's pointing out that superbestaudiofriends is useless. That site leads many astray and causes them to buy lots of gear that actually doesn't sound good, and is often massively expensive. That tale from the guy who lives in an apartment, mods his headphones, requires Beryllium drivers to feel good, needs to make changes when he has a baby by getting speakers with 15" woofers in a 11'x9' room could have included a measurement for a few bucks. But that dude is busy getting open box Utopias, and seeing if random transformers inserted inline will somehow exchange his reality for a new one.

I've been admiring some of Troels' speakers for years, but he often omits measurements. When I do see measurements, it occurs to me that his preferences and mine are not the same.;) Which is fine, but not ideal for me if I am thinking of buying his kit.

I do value your impressions, and am sorry that pair sound shrill. Nothing in the superbestaudiofriends writeup would suggest this, or indicate a remedy (like PEQ). A sweep with a simple microphone, analyzed in freeware like REW, would tell you more truth than 100k pages of superbestaudiofriends. And might suggest a path to addressing the shrillness of the speakers.
 
Hello,

I made these speakers a few months ago and I am not fully satisfied with them.
They sometimes seem "Shrill", it is with the piano that I have the most discomfort.
If I had not read other reviews from disappointed manufacturers, I would have thought I had made a mistake in the assembly of the components.
Some blame the BE tweeter but I think the problem comes from the high midrange, the filtering and maybe a little its sound signature.
I am not a technician and fortunately someone offered me his help (remotely.).
You should read this entire thread before you decide:


On the other hand, they have an impressive level of detail and precision.
The bass is clean and precise, the drums are incredible.
Once rebalanced, they will be excellent speakers, I feel like I'm not far from it and I hope to get there, but my lack of skills doesn't help me, fortunately someone helps me.
Thanks for your post, I've read some of the thread you linked to.

However, I've now already ordered the speakers so alea ejacta est.

I didn't opt for the Be tweeter, and there will be an external resistor that can be swapped out to alter the balance.

Room is large and treated and I have Krell amplification so no worries about not being able to drive them optimally.

My pre-amp has digital PEQ. I'm fairly confident that I can tame them should I need to.

If not - well, life's a gamble isn't it? :D
 
I find that calling my subjectivitivist criticism "useless" is very unfriendly.

You may notice the link I gave that connects to a list of cognitive biases. One of the most powerful biases results from the power of suggestion. One person says something, and the stage is set. Other people try to appraise their situation, but the suggestion already made reinforces the tendency to come to the same conclusion.
The next thing you know, everyone is having the same problem. Newcomers see the certainty of numbers that is already afield, and are sure that "where there's smoke, there's fire."
The final step is that this idea becomes canon, and talking heads and wagging tongues spread it as gospel ... all because of the mistake of trusting in subjective opinions not verified by scientifically-controlled tests.
So when you come across a situation where an opinion is attested without scientific foundation, be careful. Be especially careful if there is a line of other people who chime in after the fact, and they don't have any scientific foundation, either. Pretty soon you'll have a situation where "everybody knows" this, or "everybody knows" that, and there is no data to support any of it.
That's only ONE of the reasons that subjectivism is useless. (In the case of subjective testimonies regarding alternative medicine, it can even be lethally dangerous. Remember Steve Jobs?)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Everyone's mind produces subjective comparisons. It's the convenient method that we use to assess the world around us in our daily life. Subjective assessments produce subjective opinions. But as the link on heuristics shows, those subjective opinions (if not controlled) are not necessarily accurate. Not only that, but one of the characteristics of subjective assessment is that it is not reproducible, which long ago led to the development of the Scientific Method.
One of the linchpins of the scientific method is reproducibility, or repeatability. It means that the experiment that is successful today, under controlled conditions, will be similarly successful tomorrow, or next year, or a hundred years from now. The outcome will be the same here or halfway across the world. One extremely simple example that I often cite is mixing chlorine bleach and ammonia. That produces chlorine gas, and enough of it to become dangerous. It will do it any time and in any location.

As far as transferring reliable information from one person to another, that repeatability (or reproducibility) is entirely lacking in subjective thought processes ... especially if those thought processes are not formed in correlation to dispassionate (non-emotional) references. That's why the gold standard for audio is the double-blind test.

There are sites on the web that refuse to acknowledge this. Some are audio sites, and others are concerned with The Flat Earth, or dietary supplements, or old wives' tales. No matter what subject they address, the point is that subjective assessments cannot be trusted. Scientific data needs to be produced, needs to be interpreted, the whole thing needs to be subject to peer review, and then trustworthy information can be the result.

After all, subjectivism didn't give us cell phones, modern medicine, cars (ICE or electric), aircraft, the Mars rovers (and the communications to and from them) or even the simplest examples of electricity.

SCIENCE DID THAT.

So enjoy subjectiove opinions ... we all have them and we all enjoy them. Just don't trust them to be useful. :)

Jim

p.s. - Don't judge something as "unfriendly" simply because it doesn't agree with what you already think. Sometimes friends work tirelessly to dissuade you from the wrong path ... often with no thanks. Those are the best friends. OTOH, the people who gladly accompany you down the road to darkness aren't your friends. They're your enemies.
 
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I built a different pair and absolutely love them. They’re in my main system and have been for years now. I’m going to build one of his end-game designs one of these days. Been looking at the CNO-4.
 
@Jim Taylor, vous êtes la première victime des biais cognitifs en vous auto-persuadant que je suis un subjectiviste influencé par mes lectures internet.
C'est pratique, ça vous permet de déverser votre discours préfabriqué sans même prendre le temps d'essayer de comprendre.
De plus vous êtes insultant à mon égard, car indirectement vous me traitez d'imbécile incapable de faire la part des choses entre les avis positifs du site de TG et ceux lu sur les forums lorsque que j'ai cherché de l'aide pour résoudre le problème décelé par mes oreilles, incapable aussi de remettre en cause tout les autres éléments du système Hi-Fi, même de la pièce d'écoute sur laquelle j'ai travaillé en premier lieu.
Car oui, c'est bien grasse à l'ouïe et au cerveau qu'au final on prend du plaisir à écouter la musique, incroyable.
Ai-je dit que la science n'avait pas sa place ? Jamais ! Elle est indispensable mais dans ce domaine, je ne la maîtrise pas donc j'utilise le formidable outil qu'est le cerveau humain, le même qui a donné naissance à la science.
Qu'elle présomption de penser que l'humanité de 2024 est capable de tout mesurer, tout demontrer scientifiquement, si elle survie, nous passerons certainement pour des moyen-âgeux dans quelques siècles.
Combien de certitudes scientifiques tombent régulièrement grâce aux avancés tout autant scientifiques faites par l'humain ?
Le simple fait de dire que si ce n'est pas démontré par la science, ça n'existe pas, n'est pas scientifique.
Votre vie doit être bien compliquée si vous n'êtes pas capable de faire une analyse objective de ce que votre cerveau perçoit par le biais de vos sens.
Votre voiture est-elle bien de la couleur que vous pensez ? N'êtes vous pas victime de l'influence du vendeur?
Et le repas est-il vraiment bon, n'est ce pas le contexte qui vous le fait apprécier ?
Votre flatulence est-elle réellement nauséabonde? Après tout elle ne dérange que les autres, pas vous, si ça se trouve elle sent la violette. Analysons ça.
Et la peau de l'être aimé, est-elle vraiment douce ou est-ce l'amour qui me la fait percevoir comme telle?

Je suis bien conscient que ce débat est stérile, vous êtes plus extrémiste qu'objectiviste, et finalement pas si loin de ceux qui pensent qu'un câble ou un fusible révolutionne leur système audio.
Il est bien sûr que vous n'avez pas entièrement tort, mais vôtre extrémisme vous rend inaudible et est contre-productif.
Je vous laisse vous débrouiller avec la traduction, je ne participerai plus à votre forum, je me contenterai de lire les test, tout en faisant la part des choses.
Cordialement .
Xavier
 
@Xathrepsy please don't take it out on Jim. Clearly you walked into a snake pit without warning, but maybe take the time to do a little reading so you know what you have gotten yourself into:


 
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