Trip to France - some advice please!

GD Fan · Feb 1, 2025

Looking forward to hearing the recap of how this journey unfolded. Sounds fantastic.

Karmacoma · Feb 1, 2025

JaccoW said:
The roads in the US are generally a lot less safe* than in France or most of the European Union but each country does have its own peculiarities and rules of the road.
Just use your mirrors more often than you're used to and be aware of your surroundings. The French can be "assertive" drivers but generally courteous and in control. Just don't be surprised if they will overtake you on a blind corner going uphill or pull out in front of you. If they think you're too slow, they will overtake you.

The Provence in the South is a beautiful area and the middle of the country will have several beautiful old industrial areas. Think cast iron boat viaducts designed by Gustave Eiffel and the like.
Fontainebleau is a beautiful natural parc South of Paris as well and a very popular bouldering (climbing) spot.

Go eat as many pastries as you can, walk everywhere using public transport and wine and dine wherever.

Past couple of years I took the train twice from the Netherlands and rode my bike from Marseille to Barcelona and from Paris to Santiago de Compostella.

* Road deaths per 100,000:

USA: 12.9

France: 5.0

EU average: 4.6

* Road deaths per 100,000:

USA: 12.9
France: 5.0
EU average: 4.6
Ah... Stats...
Would mean much more if it were death per km/mile per 100,000. An average american drives a LOT more than the average european, so I'd say it's pretty even. I digressed sorry.

EJ3 · Feb 1, 2025

Karmacoma said:
* Road deaths per 100,000:

USA: 12.9
France: 5.0
EU average: 4.6
Ah... Stats...
Would mean much more if it were death per km/mile per 100,000. An average american drives a LOT more than the average european, so I'd say it's pretty even. I digressed sorry.

Born in Austria (raised in USA & Austria (in Austria for extended periods 9 times while growing up).
In my experience, the Italian drivers were the most assertive.
Unless you happen to get to drive in Kuwait. Then, all bets are off as to what may happen.

EJ3 · Feb 1, 2025

Ken1951 said:
We're planning a trip to France in September to last about three weeks. We're starting in Paris for about 10 days and have most of that fairly well decided upon. Guided tour of the Louvre for two days, Musee d'Orsay, Notre Dame, Ste Chapelle, Versailles, and Giverny. Possibly more I can't remember at the moment. Then the train to Reims and renting a car there. We're particularly interested in a tour of some Champagne caves after seeing them in an episode of Murders In. Does anyone have a recommendation for the best of the caves to tour? We're also going to Annecy, Lyon, Arles, Avignon, and I want to go out with a guide birding in the Camargue area. At this point the caves recommendation is an interest as I can't really seem to figure it out online. Any other advice will of course be appreciated.

In general I am a carnivore. (Alergic to seafood, so that is out & I'm very sceptical of fish unless I or my wife cooks it due to what other seafood items may have been cooked on the same cooking surface)
But in Europe (and Asia) the FRESH vegetables, fruits, soups & breads are so good, I end up not eating much meat.
Since you indicated that you are primarily not a meat eater (theirs is better than ours, also) but I am sure that I could be there a month & not eat meat.
Enjoy & have a wonderful trip.

Shorty · Feb 1, 2025

Tom C said:
A couple afterthoughts…
In general, it seems to me to be more common in Europe that when you want to visit a vineyard, you arrange an appointment for a private tour and tasting in advance.

Tom C said:
Also, there is a host or hostess at the winery who does the work of setting up, conducting, and cleaning up after the tasting. That person seemed to very much appreciate it when we purchased a bottle or two from them to take with us on the plane.

If you book a private tour and tasting, you are not supposed to purchase ‘a bottle or two’ at the end of your visit. You don’t really think the château can pay the fee for the host or hostess from the proceeds of two bottles, do you?
You should only book a private tour if you plan to leave with at least a few dozen bottles.

Willem · Feb 1, 2025

I am just back from Paris (gave a lecture at the College de France on the archeaology of Roman slavery) and of course I ate well. The journey was easy, much of it on the high speed train. It remains quite a sensation to ride from Amsterdam to Paris in just over three hours, watching the landscape wizz by. As an EU citizen I had no issues with my phone, because I had unlimited 5G broadband, as in my own country. My personal highlight, apart from seeing old friends, was my visit to the Notre Dame, recently opened again after the restoration of the damage from the horrendous fire of few years ago. It looked even more beautiful than before. The outside picture exhibition of the restoration was instructive. The French do this very well (just as they produced the grandiose 2024 Olympics). I was early, so I got in without having to stand in line, or make an advance reservation. Later in the year or later in the day one may not be so lucky.

Sal1950 · Feb 1, 2025

Willem said:
I am just back from Paris (gave a lecture at the College de France on the archeaology of Roman slavery) and of course I ate well

I've always found it curious why French food hasn't found much of a following here in the US ?
Many years ago there was a small franchise in Chicago called "The Magic Pan" that specialized in French crepe based dinners and other such.
It was one of my favorite places to go though a bit expensive. After they folded that was the end of that .

Chr1 · Feb 1, 2025

My feeling is that it is probably down to there being less immigration from France than most other European countries back in the day. French food is probably my favourite. My waistline will attest to that.
Note to self: Must curtail the dairy. Ahem.

Karmacoma · Feb 1, 2025

EJ3 said:
Born in Austria (raised in USA & Austria (in Austria for extended periods 9 times while growing up).
In my experience, the Italian drivers were the most assertive.
Unless you happen to get to drive in Kuwait. Then, all bets are off as to what may happen.

Herm, in my experience italians tend to practice a lot lane overlaping on autostradas, quite annoying. On small roads they're fine indeed.

Chr1 · Feb 1, 2025

I remember getting a friendly casual wave from Ray-Ban wearing Italian police whilst obviously exceeding the speed limit going round a high speed bend on my R1 (motorcycle) a few years back. It was not far from the Ducati factory and and they were lurking in a layby mid corner. Reckon, they could tell I was safely in control, even if speeding. So I waved back.
On the other hand, previously in a sluggish rental car, I would get stressed about the Italian fondness for severe tailgating, prior to the overtake. (Slipstreaming at 50mph. Really?)
Remember someone telling me that in Italy, simply don't look in the rearview...
Each country has its foibles. I prefer a bit of gung ho exuberance to the inherent hazards of age related medicated oblivion.
(Shout out to the UK... No retest, ever is f***ing nuts. WTF.) My 2c.

DWPress · Feb 2, 2025

The French will tailgate you like crazy but really it's normal and ok. There are speed cameras along many of the well traveled roads (there are signs that warn you in advance) and the French know where they are, the road and where to pass - and they will pass you! Overall, as the stats above show, they are better drivers, usually driving small cars that don't meet our safety standards but there's always going to be an idiot in a Suburban taking up a whole road made for donkey carts somewhere.

EJ3 · Feb 2, 2025

Chr1 said:
I remember getting a friendly casual wave from Ray-Ban wearing Italian police whilst obviously exceeding the speed limit going round a high speed bend on my R1 (motorcycle) a few years back. It was not far from the Ducati factory and and they were lurking in a layby mid corner. Reckon, they could tell I was safely in control, even if speeding. So I waved back.
On the other hand, previously in a sluggish rental car, I would get stressed about the Italian fondness for severe tailgating, prior to the overtake. (Slipstreaming at 50mph. Really?)
Remember someone telling me that in Italy, simply don't look in the rearview...
Each country has its foibles. I prefer a bit of gung ho exuberance to the inherent hazards of age related medicated oblivion.
(Shout out to the UK... No retest, ever is f***ing nuts. WTF.) My 2c.

My mother is going on 91. Her driving doesn't scare anyone I know (me included).
But, on the interstate, she does seem to think that her age & the speed limit should match each other.

Sal1950 · Feb 2, 2025

Chr1 said:
I remember getting a friendly casual wave from Ray-Ban wearing Italian police whilst obviously exceeding the speed limit going round a high speed bend on my R1 (motorcycle) a few years back. It was not far from the Ducati factory and and they were lurking in a layby mid corner. Reckon, they could tell I was safely in control, even if speeding. So I waved back.
On the other hand, previously in a sluggish rental car, I would get stressed about the Italian fondness for severe tailgating, prior to the overtake. (Slipstreaming at 50mph. Really?)

IME I've gotten really great fair treatment from Police Officers all over the US. I've no experience with riding in foreign country's.
I've been pulled over for riding at some ridiculous over the limit margins and always when using very polite, no BS excuse talking, either been let go or had the speeding number reduced to lower the fine and severity of the ticket. IE; had a 45 or 50mph over the limit number reduced to 19mph over. That changed the charge from a reckless driving (with a huge fine and license revocation) to a minor normal speeder. I had the feeling that either the trooper might have been a rider himself, or was of the opinion that "this stupid fuc-er going to kill himself soon enough anyway" LOL. I've only actually been written up 2 or 3 times after 60 years of riding and being pulled over countless times...never been charged with anything heavy.
Maybe it's my stellar Church attendance record that has had influence??? NOT. LOL

Doodski · Feb 2, 2025

Sal1950 said:
IME I've gotten really great fair treatment from Police Officers all over the US. I've no experience with riding in foreign country's.
I've been pulled over for riding at some ridiculous over the limit margins and always when using very polite, no BS excuse talking, either been let go or had the speeding number reduced to lower the fine and severity of the ticket. IE; had a 45 or 50mph over the limit number reduced to 19mph over. That changed the charge from a reckless driving (with a huge fine and license revocation) to a minor normal speeder. I had the feeling that either the trooper might have been a rider himself, or was of the opinion that "this stupid fuc-er going to kill himself soon enough anyway" LOL. I've only actually been written up 2 or 3 times after 60 years of riding and being pulled over countless times...never been charged with anything heavy.
Maybe it's my stellar Church attendance record that has had influence??? NOT. LOL

I was pulled over in Washington State on my Suzuki. I had leathers on and a full face helmet but my visor was up and so no eye protection. They complimented me on my candy apple colored ride and let me go with a order to keep my visor down or get some eye glasses. Nice folks...

Tom C · Feb 2, 2025

Shorty said:
If you book a private tour and tasting, you are not supposed to purchase ‘a bottle or two’ at the end of your visit. You don’t really think the château can pay the fee for the host or hostess from the proceeds of two bottles, do you?
You should only book a private tour if you plan to leave with at least a few dozen bottles.

Well, yes. That’s how much of an idiot I am.

EJ3 · Feb 2, 2025

Tom C said:
Well, yes. That’s how much of an idiot I am.

It's sort of like tipping is in the USA.
Even locals who do the private tour (& I'm not a wine drinker, but I go with friends, sometimes), looking at what they do, it ends up being about a dozen per person on the tour.
So, 2 people who ARE wine drinkers + myself (I do taste, don't care for most wines though) typically would be around the equivalent of 3 dozen bottles.
Based on my experiences.
Now, I have not ask my friends: is that why you do this?
Maybe next time I visit my born home I'll ask.
But it has been the norm when I have been a participant.

EJ3 · Feb 2, 2025

Sal1950 said:
I've always found it curious why French food hasn't found much of a following here in the US ?
Many years ago there was a small franchise in Chicago called "The Magic Pan" that specialized in French crepe based dinners and other such.
It was one of my favorite places to go though a bit expensive. After they folded that was the end of that .

Chr1 said:
My feeling is that it is probably down to there being less immigration from France than most other European countries back in the day. French food is probably my favourite. My waistline will attest to that.
Note to self: Must curtail the dairy. Ahem.

JaccoW · Feb 2, 2025

Karmacoma said:
* Road deaths per 100,000:

USA: 12.9
France: 5.0
EU average: 4.6
Ah... Stats...
Would mean much more if it were death per km/mile per 100,000. An average american drives a LOT more than the average european, so I'd say it's pretty even. I digressed sorry.

Ah, the classic counterargument. Ever tried looking up the answer you are asking for?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_safety_in_Europe

2018 numbers: Number of people killed per Billion km
Sweden: 3.4
France: 5.8
Germany: 4.3
Italy: 6.5
Poland: 14.6
EU Average: 5.8

And most countries in the EU have since decreased their number of road deaths.

USA 2022 data: https://www.iihs.org/topics/fatality-statistics/detail/state-by-state

Deaths per 100 million vehicle miles traveled:
US Total: 1.33
Massachusetts: 0.76
South Carolina: 1.85

Per Billion km: (x10/1.609344)
US average: 8.3
Massachusetts: 4.7
South Carolina: 11.5

And to even the score: 2018 data
Deaths per 100 million vehicle miles traveled:
US Total: 1.13
Massachusetts: 0.54
South Carolina: 1.83

Per Billion km:
US average: 7.0
Massachusetts: 3.3
South Carolina: 11.4

To be fair, I've driven around the Carolina's. I'm surprised the number isn't higher. Every single car was driving at least 15 mph over the speed limit and on their phones. Very sloppy drivers.

But I still think it is fair to say the average American road is at least 40% more dangerous. If not more.

Tom C · Feb 2, 2025

EJ3 said:
It's sort of like tipping is in the USA.
Even locals who do the private tour (& I'm not a wine drinker, but I go with friends, sometimes), looking at what they do, it ends up being about a dozen per person on the tour.
So, 2 people who ARE wine drinkers + myself (I do taste, don't care for most wines though) typically would be around the equivalent of 3 dozen bottles.
Based on my experiences.
Now, I have not ask my friends: is that why you do this?
Maybe next time I visit my born home I'll ask.
But it has been the norm when I have been a participant.

If you’re local, you may be able to put a case in the back of your vehicle and transport your purchase yourself. Coming from USA, it has to be shipped. We visited the Burgundy region once and went on a tasting. I bought a case and requested shipping. It was late June, and the host told me they don’t ship in summer because they don’t want the wine to spoil in the heat, so they would ship in the Autumn. I accepted the terms and paid, but never got my case. Months had passed, and I lost track of my receipt, so I couldn’t contact the winery. That put me off, and I don’t ever plan to buy a case that way again. Maybe the winery visit is just not for me.

EJ3 · Feb 2, 2025

Tom C said:
If you’re local, you may be able to put a case in the back of your vehicle and transport your purchase yourself. Coming from USA, it has to be shipped. We visited the Burgundy region once and went on a tasting. I bought a case and requested shipping. It was late June, and the host told me they don’t ship in summer because they don’t want the wine to spoil in the heat, so they would ship in the Autumn. I accepted the terms and paid, but never got my case. Months had passed, and I lost track of my receipt, so I couldn’t contact the winery. That put me off, and I don’t ever plan to buy a case that way again. Maybe the winery visit is just not for me.

When I'm there, I am local, (despite being concieved in Chas, SC [where I am also local and have a home], I was born in Salzburg, Austria and I have lots of family that own farmland around Salzburg and I own a condo there).

Trip to France - some advice please!

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