Trinnov Altitude 16 Review (AV Processor)

[Fidji]

Nice review and write-up re Waveforming calibration. Also nicely explained how you can dial in Waveforming - although he shows just the basics. Also nice to see how even not very optimal 4 corner placement and WF still delivers respectable results. With bit of a tweaking on top, he could get even better outcome.

I think this ability to actively and predictably adjust the outcome and control the decay is the reason why pro designers prefer WF over ART or other similar systems [I have heard somewhere 85/15 Trinnov vs Storm]. WF with basic settings will sound similar to ART, but the ability to adjust to fit with the rest of the system is still an advantage for Trinnov. [and not only in bass, Dirac is much more black0box, compare to Trinnov, where you can adjust maybe even too much]

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/martinlogan-subwoofers-trinnov-waveforming-four-corners%E2%80%A6one-goal.3343151/#post-64538805

I absolutely do NOT want to hit 130db....

My system is specced at 131dB at 40Hz [clean dB, not CTA-2010 distorted mess], this is the only way to get to reference levels also at 15Hz too [and yes you need ref level at 15hz ;-) ] . Subs and bass are about headroom - I listen at around -10dB below reference, I have my presets optimised for peaks and average at those level.

So while it might sound crazy, approx. 130-135dB at 40hz raw SPL output is about right number to start with, if you want to get high performance all the way down to the infrasonic kingdom. You need to subtract headroom for DRC etc etc. So I will repeat myself - in bass overkill is the bare minimum.

One thing that really distinguishes system with abundance of headroom is effortless dynamics and no compression - and you know what it is, once you hear it. Noting is worse than speakers and subs being driven to nonlinear distortions by overworking them.

 

[Magnus]

Nice review and write-up re Waveforming calibration. Also nicely explained how you can dial in Waveforming - although he shows just the basics. Also nice to see how even not very optimal 4 corner placement and WF still delivers respectable results. With bit of a tweaking on top, he could get even better outcome.

I think this ability to actively and predictably adjust the outcome and control the decay is the reason why pro designers prefer WF over ART or other similar systems [I have heard somewhere 85/15 Trinnov vs Storm]. WF with basic settings will sound similar to ART, but the ability to adjust to fit with the rest of the system is still an advantage for Trinnov. [and not only in bass, Dirac is much more black0box, compare to Trinnov, where you can adjust maybe even too much]

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/martinlogan-subwoofers-trinnov-waveforming-four-corners%E2%80%A6one-goal.3343151/#post-64538805

My system is specced at 131dB at 40Hz [clean dB, not CTA-2010 distorted mess], this is the only way to get to reference levels also at 15Hz too [and yes you need ref level at 15hz ;-) ] . Subs and bass are about headroom - I listen at around -10dB below reference, I have my presets optimised for peaks and average at those level.

So while it might sound crazy, approx. 130-135dB at 40hz raw SPL output is about right number to start with, if you want to get high performance all the way down to the infrasonic kingdom. You need to subtract headroom for DRC etc etc. So I will repeat myself - in bass overkill is the bare minimum.

One thing that really distinguishes system with abundance of headroom is effortless dynamics and no compression - and you know what it is, once you hear it. Noting is worse than speakers and subs being driven to nonlinear distortions by overworking them.

View attachment 521491

Have fun being DEAF!!!

 

[Andysu]

Have fun being DEAF!!!

some just don't heed the SPL dB levels warnings , their ego , i practice 85dBA peak dBC i can allow to 100dBc or short peaks 110dBc but even 100dBc feel it in the chest or stomach or elsewhere over the seating or the floor depends on the random frequencies , but 120dBc is a bit way too much had enough of that in sensurround 1970's

that guy with 150dB i think he'd be going for 160dB , sad sooner or later he'd end up deaf , realistically we don't feel bass frequencies in reality pressing against our bodies , may feel it differently if sat on a bus , we feel mechanical vibration and hear an airborne portion , stand outside bus pulls up , we hear the tone sound of it , but never feel it until stepping onto the bus

i don't use trinnov waveforming simply doesn't interest me ( yet ) had all the cables and AES converters for months but simply doesn't interest me ( yet ) i get satisfactory JBL professional cinema bass as it is , the five screen channels technical can reach 137dBc ( but i don't care to go there ) with the subs and what depends in on the mix could reach 143dBc theoretically ( but i don't care to go there to invite hearing loss ) the surrounds is another matter

 

[Magnus]

My left ear will continue to make bass sounds after the sound stops with too much deep bass exposure and I'm talking about 95dB-110dB type levels (not sure where the pint is since it usually starts after listening for a few hours, but it's definitely the bass. I had a WRX car with a SPT exhaust and it would idle at 105dB C-weighted bass around 30Hz. It was only 87dB A-weighted, but I don't trust those graphsing term.

Some theaters in the 50s or 60s used to play subsonic tones on monsyer/horror movies to generate a fear response. They'd play like 15Hz at 135dB thinking it's out of the hearing range and just generates a feeling of unease. From what I read, people were getting hearing loss from this so they stopped doing it at some point.

 

[Oddball]

My left ear will continue to make bass sounds after the sound stops with too much deep bass exposure and I'm talking about 95dB-110dB type levels (not sure where the pint is since it usually starts after listening for a few hours, but it's definitely the bass. I had a WRX car with a SPT exhaust and it would idle at 105dB C-weighted bass around 30Hz. It was only 87dB A-weighted, but I don't trust those graphsing term.

Some theaters in the 50s or 60s used to play subsonic tones on monsyer/horror movies to generate a fear response. They'd play like 15Hz at 135dB thinking it's out of the hearing range and just generates a feeling of unease. From what I read, people were getting hearing loss from this so they stopped doing it at some point.

I usually listen to -10dB to reference that most people consider loud, but is based on most measures well within the safe territory of 75dB average. I usually don't get even 2 hours a day on average, and travel a lot so at those days its only the Macbook.

I do want to have the ability though to listen to reference few times I feel like I want to though, so that's why speced the system higher. Than there are the stupid days when you might feel compelled to turn it all the way up, so I have covered that as well. In my case, stupid is +5dB to reference as ART setup eats up headroom above that.

I do want to keep my hearing in good order, but also want a treat every now and then.

 

[Andysu]

My left ear will continue to make bass sounds after the sound stops with too much deep bass exposure and I'm talking about 95dB-110dB type levels (not sure where the pint is since it usually starts after listening for a few hours, but it's definitely the bass. I had a WRX car with a SPT exhaust and it would idle at 105dB C-weighted bass around 30Hz. It was only 87dB A-weighted, but I don't trust those graphsing term.

Some theaters in the 50s or 60s used to play subsonic tones on monsyer/horror movies to generate a fear response. They'd play like 15Hz at 135dB thinking it's out of the hearing range and just generates a feeling of unease. From what I read, people were getting hearing loss from this so they stopped doing it at some point.

what to try sine waves providing you know how to use REW sound generator ) careful with caution )
processor handles tones easily ,
amplifiers handle tones easily
speakers are able to handle those tones easily with sensitivity voltage and won't burn out the voice coil

due to our hearing roll off on higher highs

try starting 10,000KHz and steady go upwards , you'll feel like a small piece of your hair is suck down your ear canal and gently touching your ear membrane/drum a pressure and may give you slight anxiety you may damage the speaker , depends how far away from the speaker you are and dips/peaks/nulls ( best try with closed headphones )

 

[Fidji]

have a read - CEDIA White Paper - is free, you just need to register I think.

CEDIA User Portal > Shop > Product Catalog > Product Details

CEDIA, The Home for Smart Home Professionals, serving the industry through advocacy, connection, and education.

my.cedia.org

Re - Reference levels - 85dB [and subsequently 105/115db} are usually referred to as "Reference Level" but, it is always followed "but it is too loud for me, so I turn it down", which is absolutely normal - as you can see 85dB was always considered for bigger rooms.

In my case cca 3400cuf [96cum], would suggest 78dB as reference level - which is about right. Now comes the tricky part - calibrating the system for 78dB is completely different to 85dB. Good news - gives you extra headroom, bad news - not exactly there where you need it [you get 7dB in midrange but only 2-3dB in Bass].
Also target curve should be slightly different for 78 vs 85 - to compensate for equal loudness I am adding already bit of extra weight from 500hz downwards [starting very gently and ending in round +5dB extra over slightly hotter B&K curve [I get consistently better results from B&K curve type of slope in bass vs Harman hump]

But normally we listen at around 70-72dB which is a plenty, again it has its own set of curves [29 Presets of Trinnov are the best ;-) ] - again optimize for Clarity, Dialogue and having this quiet authoritative bass with no overhang, just brutal potential, that is never needed. My system starts to sound fully immersive at around 65dB, so at 68-70 we are good already.

It is really all about having this headroom - having system capable of more than 131 gets you just about where you need to be.

E.g. this is my system - 8x18in with Xmax of 17mm, pro drivers. This is already with filters applied - it gets you to 120dB at 20Hz and as you can see, all the limits are gone at 40Hz and above. What is important - this are not CTA2010 numbers, that you can see on specs of commercial subs, this are real, clean dB. This is why I am always skeptical about commercial subs claiming 125dB and 20Hz from 15in Driver.

Frequency (Hz)	Predicted SPL (dB)
10 Hz	114.2 dB
20 Hz	120.2 dB
30 Hz	123.7 dB
40 Hz	126.2 dB
50 Hz	128.2 dB
60 Hz	129.8 dB
70 Hz	131.1 dB
80 Hz	132.3 dB
90 Hz	133.3 dB
100 Hz	134.2 dB

Let's do math together:

Target 110dB [at 78dB Ref]

Raw output 132dB - DRC filters 6-9dB = approx 125dB - House Curve 5dB = 120dB - Bass Management 3-4dB = let's say around 115dB, so you are left with 5dB net headroom, which is about just enough, if you want low distortion and really clean bass.

So yes, in order to have high performance HT, you really need to get to relatively insane numbers on paper, so that you can listen quietly.

[btw it is this new Trinnov tool and WHite Paper here https://www.trinnov.com/en/blog/posts/predicting-bass-output-in-a-waveforming-room ]
and also something for more math oriented, Trinnov released some math recently re estimate of SPL from its WF.

 

[etc6849]

Thanks! I've been meaning to reply here, but was too busy. I will read this white paper. Most greatly under estimate the required headroom and have no idea their setup is clipping.

I'm glad you posted this great science based post, but I'm sure you'll still receive replies that an AVR is good enough in a thread for a $20k processor .

I can't remember if I shared it before, but this calculator is useful too:
https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/calculators/amplifier-output-calculator

[btw it is this new Trinnov tool and WHite Paper here https://www.trinnov.com/en/blog/posts/predicting-bass-output-in-a-waveforming-room ]
and also something for more math oriented, Trinnov released some math recently re estimate of SPL from its WF.

 

[Andysu]

it seems new software for trinnov alt 32 won't be avlaible for many more months to come as its rather complex to get it to integrate smoothly and be tested that no hitches or errors occur , this from custom service , so relax it be available soon and can then throw away that 4:3 screen for a 16:9

 

[Andysu]

fuse blew on trinnov alt last week during power On , didn't have any spare ( T1A slow blow delay fuses ) , have a batch of fuses now , it may not happen again it was a flake spike in power On at switching on at the mains , when system is not in use all power to room is switched Off

 

[Andysu]

trinnov can least add , low pass filters , high pass filters and shelving filters and adjustable PEQ bandwidth filters , and a bit more filters for problematic frequencies
and a easier way to use this , audio limiter ? usually its just set a , threshold gain level ?

 

[Andysu]

trinnov can least make a far better , adjustable digital Lt Rt level balance control as some Dolby Stereo Lt Rt signals do have some slight tiny dB out of balance , that needs be adjusted within 0.1dB steps , the same can also be applied to RCA inputs , laserdisc is high on the list yet again ! dolby atmos uhd discs are just rubbish boring atmos movies that i simply do not care about anymore , Laserdisc trinnov its the only format that uses uncompressed audio theatrical mixes

 

[Andysu]

trinnov can least improve the feature to make a customised movie soundtrack database on the processor to . . .
:file titles with customised
Eq settings
gain level settings
LCRS channel sent to subs with channels set to specific crossover settings that will be sent to subwoofer channel

i don't use actual crossover settings on the speakers since they are all JBL professional motion picture loudspeakers for reproduction of motion picture soundtracks

but a few easier updates would be appreciated

 

[Andysu]

there is two items not available on this so called end game processor that was on other cheap avr's years ago