Trinnov Altitude 16 Review (AV Processor)

[Oddball]

Let's do some basic math!

One 90dB efficient speaker will produce at 1 meter 90dB pink band rated sound with 1W of input power! Every 3dB of increased output requires doubling the power. Every 10dB of output "sounds" twice as loud.

Dolby requires 105dB peak ratings for their certified standard based off an 85dB per channel continous calibration.

You'll need 32W for 106dB continous output at one meter. Typical distance is 3m for front row. With typical room boundaries, you're looking at 128W per channel fully driven for all channels, which would hit insane ear shattering levels were even 11 channels driven to those levels at once (~115dB!!!)

Show me one person who listens at 115dB and I'll show you a deaf person! Even so, a 11 channel home theater could realistically achieve 11 channels at 128W each with external amplification.

Realistically, most people are listening to movies averaging 85dB and they turn their 0dB calibration down 6dB-20dB based on what I've read on Avs over the years. Down a mere 6dB from maximum, you'd only need an an average of 32W per channel, well within the range of almost any decent AVR.

Go to 96dB efficient speakers (some pro JBL speakers are 100dB efficient horn loaded) and you can achieve ear crushing levels at a mere 32W per channel (subs separate).

In general, the idea the average person needs not only separates, but two circuits worth of amps is patently absurd.

Nice work. But does not take into account the curve. With +12dB shelf it will get a bit more demanding. What an average person needs is up to them. Going into high SPL territory is a bit of a pickle. Say, you want to be sure to hit 130dB as 115dB seems like a lowball.

 

[Everett T]

Every AVR I've seen independently measured with all channels driven can't compete. People with no technical background have been posting that it can for decades, doesn't make it true. Sure there might be the 1/10000 $24k AVR that's good enough for most, but that still means AVRs suck because 9999/10000 do.

Keep in mind, FWIW, that the ACD test isn't practical with real world.usage, so most don't put a lot of stock into it. If running 5.x.4 or .6 and need more power for the LCR, bed layer, or VOG, it can be added. Also, in your 10000 AVR scenario, what percentage of those would be considered low end?

I understand that AVRs are not for you, but "suck" seems broadly subjective.

 

[Everett T]

Agreed. The link was to substantiate how AVRs have place in the ultimate setups. I can't really say that I am all in on Theo's theory. I still prefer my stereo amps...

Agreed. He had a lot of options for his setup from his company (CI company) and Perlisten didn't have in walls at the time he started his room but I'm sure he would have still chosen the Astral to power them if they had.

 

[Fidji]

Keep in mind, FWIW, that the ACD test isn't practical with real world.usage, so most don't put a lot of stock into it. If running 5.x.4 or .6 and need more power for the LCR, bed layer, or VOG, it can be added. Also, in your 10000 AVR scenario, what percentage of those would be considered low end?

I understand that AVRs are not for you, but "suck" seems broadly subjective.

I am also fully in AVP and "more watt=more better" camp [basically because of flexibility of AVP vs AVR and headroom on separates+better thermals]. But it is my personal choice.

But - I have heard my share of bad sounding systems, and I am still to hear HT that would be primarily limited by amps power or where simple amp upgrade would solve underlying issues. Usually speakers started to give up in dynamic peaks or room acoustics started to be unbearable at higher SPLs [or it was atrocious from the start ;-) ]. In my opinion - 99% of use cases for HT will be OK with AVR or if you want to push it AVR+LCR external amps. In case of e.g. Denon/Marantz/Anthem performance bracket AVP does not make sense at all - as you will get basically the same performance out of AV10/20+separates and “get the cheapest Denon that fits your channel count and 3 channel amp from Buckeye for fronts” setup with Dirac/ART.

But - if Trinnov would come with 20RU tall, 250kg heavy 32 channel AVR with 9600W of amp power [smth like this in one case], I would maybe consider it ;-). Just that people know - Amplitude 8 has 2 toroids and weighs 50kg apiece, still being D Class.

 

[Magnus]

Nice work. But does not take into account the curve. With +12dB shelf it will get a bit more demanding. What an average person needs is up to them. Going into high SPL territory is a bit of a pickle. Say, you want to be sure to hit 130dB as 115dB seems like a lowball.

I wasn't talking about subwoofer bass, as I said, it has nothing to do with AVRs BS AVP. Subs are almost always externally powered.

Personally, I think a 12dB shelf is ridiculous anyway. It's certainly not theater accurate. Anything above 6dB is too loud with modern mixes, IMO.

 

[Dan1210]

I'm e guessing a lot of Trinnov users have
Kaleidescape, which supports uncompressed object based 3d audio.

I haven't seen this mentioned before, I understood the mixes on kaleidoscope are the same mixes as the Burays. Are you suggesting this product supplies the user with the original cinema track?

 

[Everett T]

I haven't seen this mentioned before, I understood the mixes on kaleidoscope are the same mixes as the Burays. Are you suggesting this product supplies the user with the original cinema track?

No, as me mentioned in later posts, I was confusing the number of object tracks and channel.count.

 

[Oddball]

I wasn't talking about subwoofer bass, as I said, it has nothing to do with AVRs BS AVP. Subs are almost always externally powered.

Personally, I think a 12dB shelf is ridiculous anyway. It's certainly not theater accurate. Anything above 6dB is too loud with modern mixes, IMO.

Personally I think that Dirac should extend the shelf to +18. Plenty of bassheads around. Sorry, did not hear the "too loud portion" as my subs are blazing .

 

[Oddball]

I am also fully in AVP and "more watt=more better" camp [basically because of flexibility of AVP vs AVR and headroom on separates+better thermals]. But it is my personal choice.

But - I have heard my share of bad sounding systems, and I am still to hear HT that would be primarily limited by amps power or where simple amp upgrade would solve underlying issues. Usually speakers started to give up in dynamic peaks or room acoustics started to be unbearable at higher SPLs [or it was atrocious from the start ;-) ]. In my opinion - 99% of use cases for HT will be OK with AVR or if you want to push it AVR+LCR external amps. In case of e.g. Denon/Marantz/Anthem performance bracket AVP does not make sense at all - as you will get basically the same performance out of AV10/20+separates and “get the cheapest Denon that fits your channel count and 3 channel amp from Buckeye for fronts” setup with Dirac/ART.

But - if Trinnov would come with 20RU tall, 250kg heavy 32 channel AVR with 9600W of amp power [smth like this in one case], I would maybe consider it ;-). Just that people know - Amplitude 8 has 2 toroids and weighs 50kg apiece, still being D Class.

View attachment 519445

I can't say this does not make me a bit excited, but Trinnov is a bit elusive for most of us. I can though vouch with utmost certainty that 9.6kW is extreme overkill. So is the 4.8KW for 16 ch. You are just pretty much wasting your money.

While they have the looks, it is all subjective. Would take my rack anytime, but then that's just me.

 

[etc6849]

Depends which amps you buy. All my Benchmark amps are worth more today on the used market versus what I paid for them. That's what buying a well made, supported, made in US product can do.

An AVR loses value very quickly, even one made by a good company like Storm, which is another reason why putting everything into one box sucks... A $16-24k AVR will have way more depreciation than my amps over 5-10 years.

If you shop around and get a 10 channel Altitude CI for under $10k, it is more than a fair price. Just the Trinnov Nova room correction studios use is $5k. At most I might lose $1-2k on the Trinnov after using it for a few years. It also has Dante and AES3, so it is way more flexible than a $16k AVR will ever be.

And being able to handle 120dB+ is not a waste of money. Plenty of HD audio tracks have insane peaks and loads of dynamic range. 300W per channel sounds about right if you don't want to clip. Your AVR will set there and clip all day and never tell you.

I can't say this does not make me a bit excited, but Trinnov is a bit elusive for most of us. I can though vouch with utmost certainty that 9.6kW is extreme overkill. So is the 4.8KW for 16 ch. You are just pretty much wasting your money.

While they have the looks, it is all subjective. Would take my rack anytime, but then that's just me.

 

[Oddball]

Depends which amps you buy. All my Benchmark amps are worth more today on the used market versus what I paid for them. That's what buying a well made, supported, made in US product can do.

An AVR loses value very quickly, even one made by a good company like Storm, which is another reason why putting everything into one box sucks... A $16-24k AVR will have way more depreciation than my amps over 5-10 years.

If you shop around and get a 10 channel Altitude CI for under $10k, it is more than a fair price. Just the Trinnov Nova room correction studios use is $5k. At most I might lose $1-2k on the Trinnov after using it for a few years. It also has Dante and AES3, so it is way more flexible than a $16k AVR will ever be.

And being able to handle 120dB+ is not a waste of money. Plenty of HD audio tracks have insane peaks and loads of dynamic range. 300W per channel sounds about right if you don't want to clip. Your AVR will set there and clip all day and never tell you.

I have modest amps that do 80 dB sinad. They are also 130W only per channel. They don't clip even at +5dB to reference, with demanding content like the final battle in Endgame. If you want to load the insane peaks on your bed channels - well that is insane concept. Just let the subs deal with that.

BTW, I can do 130dB easily any time of day. Waste of money - well it is only the money. Being healthy and happy obviously trumps that.

 

[etc6849]

Every hobby is a waste of money then if that's your standard lol. I am happy and healthy too, just not wealthy. It took me 20 years to have the audio system I have.

I have modest amps that do 80 dB sinad. They are also 130W only per channel. They don't clip even at +5dB to reference, with demanding content like the final battle in Endgame. If you want to load the insane peaks on your bed channels - well that is insane concept. Just let the subs deal with that.

BTW, I can do 130dB easily any time of day. Waste of money - well it is only the money. Being healthy and happy obviously trumps that.

 

[Oddball]

Every hobby is a waste of money then if that's your standard lol. I am happy and healthy too, just not wealthy. It took me 20 years to have the audio system I have.

Without comments to wealth, it took me 15 years to get to the system I have.

 

[etc6849]

Since we are on the topic, these will be my bookshelf speakers... wait I mean height speakers for immersive audio lol:
https://www.stereophile.com/content/klipsch-palladium-p-17b-loudspeaker

Got some Peavey VM 35 mounts waiting for my SendCutSend mounting plates I drew in Fusion 360 to get in. Should have no problem mounting 35 lb speakers above my head.

 

[dlaloum]

Because no AVR I've seen delivers anywhere near what best in class amps like the Benchmark AHB2 can. If it says 11 channels 200W max, you don't really get 2200W of amplification out. No clipping lights either, and of course its voltage rails are going to support all 11 channels being driven without any voltage droop, right...

In general AVRs have a limited power supply. Yes, driving a few channels, you will get full output. But, unless the AVR requires two separate 15A circuits, it will never perform in the same ballpark when driving that many channels. This is supposed to be a science forum based on real electrical engineering.

People are free to use AVRs of course, but why go post about that in this sub forum lol. I want top level performance and more dynamic range, no clipping, etc...

PS: I already have 5 subs that are time aligned and level match, and I'm using 12 bass traps... Pretty sure my bass is fine without the Trinnov, but of course I will eventually try wave forming if I buy the extra channels.

Optimising performance means having ENOUGH power/current for your specific speakers in your specific room.... (with your specific listening levels)

That means there is no single answer.

My amps tend to average 1W continuous and have never peaked beyond 16W as far as I can tell...

So the amp requirements are not necessarily onerous - and an external power amp may be overkill - which is why I recently retire my external power amps.

More than what you need to achieve the required SPL into your specific speaker loads, is completely irrelevant....

You might want to provide 20db headroom (as per cinema standards) - or based on music recordings, you might want to provide 25db headroom - either way, you are unlikely to need an external power amp in most home setups.

 

[dlaloum]

Nice work. But does not take into account the curve. With +12dB shelf it will get a bit more demanding. What an average person needs is up to them. Going into high SPL territory is a bit of a pickle. Say, you want to be sure to hit 130dB as 115dB seems like a lowball.

I absolutely do NOT want to hit 130db....

 

[Everett T]

But - if Trinnov would come with 20RU tall, 250kg heavy 32 channel AVR with 9600W of amp power [smth like this in one case], I would maybe consider it ;-). Just that people know - Amplitude 8 has 2 toroids and weighs 50kg apiece, still being D Class.

View attachment 519445

My 24u and 18u are already full and that's with just 5 external amps, lol. I'd never buy that many amp channels in an AVR (or more than what is currently available) and agree with what you're saying. I use an AVR for one of my 2 channel systems as a preamp. I would have purchased an AVP when I made my last AVR purchase but my kid decided to go to graduate school in Boston for her PhD.

Just was noting that AVRs can and do have a place for many.

 

[Oddball]

I absolutely do NOT want to hit 130db....

It's a nice number though...

 

[etc6849]

I'm curious. How did you measure this? And how do you know your system doesn't clip during playback of tracks with dynamic range? Most ways of measuring amplifier power (that are user available/friendly) are only going to show RMS (average) levels, not peak wattage.

When I and others say their systems can handle 120dB or more, we are talking about for peaks, not for average playback levels.

Further, the problem is speaker impedance (load the amp sees) will vary widely with frequency, so using a low wattage amplifier will likely result in clipping during musical transients (like when a musician slams a drum). Low frequencies stress the amp more, and potentially cause voltage rails to sag (for under designed power supplies), resulting in clipping whether you hear it or not... These peaks happen when playing back well recorded songs with lots of dynamic range.

A system should not only be sized for the average listening level, but it should be sized for the highest peak level it will be expected to reproduce cleanly at the listening position. You absolutely need some headroom for musical transients. This isn't my opinion, but how professionals in audio engineering think (not my specialty, but I am an EE for what it's worth).

But aside from that, if these are the specs for your speakers, you can use this online calculator (scroll to bottom of page) as a guide. However, a word of caution: realize sensitivity isn't a single number in the real world. A tower might be have a sensitivity rating of 88 dB/watt, but that does not mean deep bass is anywhere near that efficient.

https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/calculators/amplifier-output-calculator
View attachment 519749
View attachment 519748

You can play with the numbers and see what the peak levels can be.

My amps tend to average 1W continuous and have never peaked beyond 16W as far as I can tell...

 

[Oddball]

I'm curious. How did you measure this? And how do you know your system doesn't clip during playback of tracks with dynamic range? Most ways of measuring amplifier power (that are user available/friendly) are only going to show RMS (average) levels, not peak wattage.

When I and others say their systems can handle 120dB or more, we are talking about for peaks, not for average playback levels.

Further, the problem is speaker impedance (load the amp sees) will vary widely with frequency, so using a low wattage amplifier will likely result in clipping during musical transients (like when a musician slams a drum). Low frequencies stress the amp more, and potentially cause voltage rails to sag (for under designed power supplies), resulting in clipping whether you hear it or not... These peaks happen when playing back well recorded songs with lots of dynamic range.

A system should not only be sized for the average listening level, but it should be sized for the highest peak level it will be expected to reproduce cleanly at the listening position. You absolutely need some headroom for musical transients. This isn't my opinion, but how professionals in audio engineering think (not my specialty, but I am an EE for what it's worth).

But aside from that, if these are the specs for your speakers, you can use this online calculator (scroll to bottom of page) as a guide. However, a word of caution: realize sensitivity isn't a single number in the real world. A tower might be have a sensitivity rating of 88 dB/watt, but that does not mean deep bass is anywhere near that efficient.

https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/calculators/amplifier-output-calculator
View attachment 519749
View attachment 519748

You can play with the numbers and see what the peak levels can be.

I have this soundmeter.

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Ordered it while abroad, so did not have really that many options. Works pretty well though.

I am talking about peaks, but it is also relative if you ask subs to do 140+dB and sub DSP limits that to 130dB. I will limit it to the extent you don't cross that range so bass range will be a bit flattened as signal below 130 dB will not be.

I completely agree with you to size the system according to peaks. That's why I use the subs to 100hz as my relatively big towers can't really go that loud, competent and distortion free below that range. There are 4 subs, 6 13.5/13.8 drivers and almost 5 kW of power. It is a big room but they can fill it and then some.

Just as an example, this is the busy graph for my FL, curtesy of ART.