Trinnov Altitude 16 Review (AV Processor)

[DonH56]

24/192 in processor seems like hype. Trinnov current dacs just do 18bits. Why even tout 24/192? Does not seem like that is a real advantage over any of the others when you look at how they measure. Just 24/48 is "drowned" in the noise of Trinnov's dacs.

Like I said, "for those who care". I do not, frankly. But most 24-bit DACs do not approach true 24-bit performance, and 108 dB (18 bits'ish) or so SNR is more than good enough to me. I just don't find reaching for the absolute best in measurements the end-all be-all of overall performance; once past a certain level of performance, I look at other things. It is clear my threshold is lower than yours; I have considered getting an outboard DAC to try, but balked at the cost and effort.

FWIW, they've announced an upgrade to 24-bit DACs in the latest version, but I doubt I will pay for the upgrade. They also have an HDMI 2.1 video board but I don't need it so again will likely pass. When researching my SDP-75, I got to converse (via email) an owner of one of the first few units who has not upgraded and is perfectly happy. He was a calibrator so I considered him a credible witness.

You seem to have taken on as a mission in life to convince the world that Trinnov is not worth considering. You have made your arguments, reasonable and valid for the most part, perhaps it is time to move on?

 

[DonH56]

@DonH56 Thank you but what I asked is below. I numbered the reasons you listed so that we can communicate better.

There could be lots of reasons the Denon room was preferred, (1) including speaker choice and setup, (2) room interactions (SBIR, modes, etc.), (3) different frequency response curves in the processors that favored user preference more on Denon than on Trinnov, etc.

I was trying to understand how those three issues you listed can be reasons to choose Denon. I can’t see an answer in your response.

(1) If different speakers were used in comparing Denon to Trinnov, that could swamp the processing. Room correction will not usually (if ever) make all speakers sound the same.

(2) The room impacts the sound in multiple ways and room correction cannot correct everything. If the Denon room emphasized frequencies the listener preferred, or suppressed ones he did not, then Denon wins. Or maybe just where the MLP is placed in the room... What if he was listening in a null, or a spot of peak reflections, in the Trinnov room that did not exist in the Denon room?

(3) Perhaps the Denon's target curve had more or less bass and/or treble emphasis compared to the Trinnov. It would be like adjusting the EQ, or bass and treble controls, and one response is likely preferred over the other. What if DEQ was enabled on the Denon so it's response was "better" at the listening volume compared to the Trinnov?

So many variables, so hard to match, makes it difficult to compare.

HTH - Don

 

[sarumbear]

(1) If different speakers were used in comparing Denon to Trinnov, that could swamp the processing. Room correction will not usually (if ever) make all speakers sound the same.

(2) The room impacts the sound in multiple ways and room correction cannot correct everything. If the Denon room emphasized frequencies the listener preferred, or suppressed ones he did not, then Denon wins. Or maybe just where the MLP is placed in the room... What if he was listening in a null, or a spot of peak reflections, in the Trinnov room that did not exist in the Denon room?

(3) Perhaps the Denon's target curve had more or less bass and/or treble emphasis compared to the Trinnov. It would be like adjusting the EQ, or bass and treble controls, and one response is likely preferred over the other. What if DEQ was enabled on the Denon so it's response was "better" at the listening volume compared to the Trinnov?

So many variables, so hard to match, makes it difficult to compare.

HTH - Don

I think I read your words “There could be lots of reasons the Denon room was preferred” literally while it seems you meant “the Denon room could be preferred”. Not what happened (fact) but what could have happened (possibility).

Thank you anyway for bearing with me.

 

[DonH56]

I think I read your words “There could be lots of reasons the Denon room was preferred” literally while it seems you meant “the Denon room could be preferred”. Not what happened (fact) but what could have happened (possibility).

Thank you anyway for bearing with me.

I suppose I should have said "the room including the Denon system". I'm an engineer, English is a third language...

The idea was that many things (variables) could be different between the two rooms and components within them that impacted the sound.

 

[jhenderson0107]

In my home theater, the Trinnov drives Genelec L, C, R via AES/EBU. The remaining bed-layer Genelec speakers are driven via the Altitude 16 DACs via XLR and the overheads via the Altitude 16 DACs through ATI amps.

I converted the L, C, R from analog XLR to AES/EBU when Trinnov released their +4 software upgrade, which allowed the two SPDIF outputs to operate as independent, digital output channels. The difference between digital and analog signal delivery is inaudible to me and other critical listeners. Not surprising, as SINAD improved from 100 dB (audibly transparent) to 124 dB (audibly transparent).

Modern electronics signal chains are audibly transparent. Fretting over SINAD is stepping over 100 dollar bills to pick up pennies.

 

[Fidji]

Right. We have to go into a subjective discussion. That's endless. I say it's over-hyped not because I can't afford it. My amps are Krell Duo 300XD, $11.5K, Krell Chorus 5200XD $10.5k, Mcintosh XR200 speakrs L&R $22K, XCS200 center $8k etc., etc.

Let's stick to objective data. Trinnov's performance is inferior to many processors a fraction of its price. Denon has much better objective measurements.

Would you mind send Krells to Amir? SINAD around 80? I think you can get MUCH better SINAD for the fraction of the fraction of the price. - e.g. something based on Hypex NC2K or 1200.

I had them at home for couple of days, but actually after 15 minutes I knew there were 3 levels inferior to my Ayre V-XR, not even comparing them to Purifi amps that I use for surround.. You should go and buy yourself some proper amp with proper SINAD, and not get fooled by all this Krell hype. Krell was acceptable choice in the times, when there was no better alternative, but this was like 30 years ago. I am surprised, that somebody so focused on 3dB SINAD difference on AV preamp is able to accept so technically mediocre and overpriced piece of gear.

I think this EMOTIVA would be just about fitting to your Krells - SINAD 84.

Emotiva XMC-2 Review (AV Processor)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Emotiva XMC-2 Audio/Video Processor (AVP). It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $3,000. The XMC-2 is surprisingly light for a high-end processor which my back appreciated as I carried it around: Ironically, the remote is made out of...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[maverickronin]

Possibly because most manufacturers understood the term Hi-Fi to mean high fidelity and altering the signal is against that concept.

From my perspective it's fixing the signal, not much different from room correction and bass management, but IIRC your personal view is that art is sacrosanct and shouldn't be modified once created so you probably wouldn't agree.

 

[Fidji]

From my perspective it's fixing the signal, not much different from room correction and bass management, but IIRC your personal view is that art is sacrosanct and shouldn't be modified once created so you probably wouldn't agree.

Having Bass/Treble/Loudness was really desirable feature, when I was 14. I made good use of it on my Pioneer gear at that time.

Of course, you still can get a workaround, with presets - one time set-up, but then it is just one press of the button.

 

[simple6]

In my home theater, the Trinnov drives Genelec L, C, R via AES/EBU. The remaining bed-layer Genelec speakers are driven via the Altitude 16 DACs via XLR and the overheads via the Altitude 16 DACs through ATI amps.

I converted the L, C, R from analog XLR to AES/EBU when Trinnov released their +4 software upgrade, which allowed the two SPDIF outputs to operate as independent, digital output channels. The difference between digital and analog signal delivery is inaudible to me and other critical listeners.

Can I please ask how you converted SPDIF to digital AES/EBU for the 4 channels feeding into your LCR? Is there a cost-effective way of doing this through a single device?

 

[Dj7675]

Having Bass/Treble/Loudness was really desirable feature, when I was 14. I made good use of it on my Pioneer gear at that time.

Of course, you still can get a workaround, with presets - one time set-up, but then it is just one press of the button.

Being able to make on the fly corrections either based on the recording deficiencies or to make up for lacking bass when listening at low volumes is actually important. Some of this can be taken care of with a low volume preset for example as you mentioned. But some adjustments that may be needed on some recordings is not practical to fix with a preset. It is much simpler with a few clicks on a treble/bass/brightness control.
I feel in good company when Floyd Toole was lamenting the fact there weren’t simple treble/bass controls on his processor (believe he has the SDP-75). You might not like or use them, but many do. Implying superiority because you don’t use tone controls/loudness controls, is very…. juvenile.

 

[jhenderson0107]

Can I please ask how you converted SPDIF to digital AES/EBU for the 4 channels feeding into your LCR? Is there a cost-effective way of doing this through a single device?

The Altitude 16 provides coax and optical digital outputs, which operate as independent digital outputs. Therefore, two different adapters are required:

Hosa coax to AES
Hosa toslink to AES

 

[jhenderson0107]

...Being able to make on the fly corrections either based on the recording deficiencies or to make up for lacking bass when listening at low volumes is actually important. ...

Not Trinnov specific: Adding a DEQ2496 in the digital signal path of an audio streamer provides flexible, front-panel tone/equalization controls. I have several and like them, but they're not as trivial to use as bass, mid, treble knobs. It can be remote controlled via RS232 if you're too lazy to walk to the equipment or enjoy coding such things.

 

[Fidji]

Being able to make on the fly corrections either based on the recording deficiencies or to make up for lacking bass when listening at low volumes is actually important. Some of this can be taken care of with a low volume preset for example as you mentioned. But some adjustments that may be needed on some recordings is not practical to fix with a preset. It is much simpler with a few clicks on a treble/bass/brightness control.
I feel in good company when Floyd Toole was lamenting the fact there weren’t simple treble/bass controls on his processor (believe he has the SDP-75). You might not like or use them, but many do. Implying superiority because you don’t use tone controls/loudness controls, is very…. juvenile.

No, in the opposite - I do apply them, just via presets, which is a superior way. I have low bass preset, low volume preset with loudness, movie mode, music mode, whatever you wish. Even “shock your friends how much bass it can play” preset.

But I use it predominantly as a DRC - digital room correction. And if recording is bad - it can be very rarely improved by loudness controls. So I do not see loudness control as any added value to correct any specific recording.

 

[Dj7675]

No, in the opposite - I do apply them, just via presets, which is a superior way. I have low bass preset, low volume preset with loudness, movie mode, music mode, whatever you wish. Even “shock your friends how much bass it can play” preset.

But I use it predominantly as a DRC - digital room correction. And if recording is bad - it can be very rarely improved by loudness controls. So I do not see loudness control as any added value to correct any specific recording.

All good points on the use of presets... we will just have to agree to disagree on tone controls. It would be trivial IMO for Trinnov to implement and quite useful for quick the fly adjustments. It isn't an either/or situation.

 

[Madhuski]

I suppose I should have said "the room including the Denon system". I'm an engineer, English is a third language...

The idea was that many things (variables) could be different between the two rooms and components within them that impacted the sound.

listener bias could also play a role in that particular Denon Room being preferred…..

 

[Molon_Labe]

listener bias could also play a role in that particular Denon Room being preferred…..

The converse could be said about the Trinnov - more so because high-cost items and elitism are often synonymous. Reading this thread made me chuckle. It never fails in every Trinnov discussion that a Trinnov owner will play the poor man card i..e the only people knocking the Trinnov are those that can't afford it. Trinnov is a status symbol like a Porsche 911 or Ferrari. When a modified miata or corvette spanks their arse on a road course the pompous, elitist comments soon follow that a miata will always be a miata and the corvette is the redneck wannabe. Most of the Trinnov crowd reminds me of the preps in the 80s with their Lacoste polo shirts, cardigan sweaters, and Members Only jackets. This was not directed at you Madhuski. I have always enjoyed our PMs on AVS and I am not even sure what AVP you own now. I know you change your system up all the time.

 

[DonH56]

The converse could be said about the Trinnov - more so because high-cost items and elitism are often synonymous. Reading this thread made me chuckle. It never fails in every Trinnov discussion that a Trinnov owner will play the poor man card i..e the only people knocking the Trinnov are those that can't afford it. Trinnov is a status symbol like a Porsche 911 or Ferrari. When a modified miata or corvette spanks their arse on a road course the pompous, elitist comments soon follow that a miata will always be a miata and the corvette is the redneck wannabe. Most of the Trinnov crowd reminds me of the preps in the 80s with their Lacoste polo shirts, cardigan sweaters, and Members Only jackets. This was not directed at you Madhuski. I have always enjoyed our PMs on AVS and I am not even sure what AVP you own now. I know you change your system up all the time.

I don't know what a miata is, have no desire for a Corvette or Porsche (no ground clearance, I'll stick with my Jeep), and am not sure I own a polo shirt (probably, pretty sure it ain't a name brand). The Trinnov in all its complexity speaks to the geek in me, and does a better job than my previous Emotiva AVP and Pioneer Elite AVR sound-wise. As for measurements, REW and my old professional SW think Trinnov did a better job at bass integration, with impulse response better than the Emotiva (Dirac Live) and a hair better than I managed to achieve with my Pioneer after a lot of manual tweaking. But as I mentioned above, I needed 16 channels, and got tired of waiting for Emotiva, so when a refurbished SDP-75 came along for a good price I decided to bite the bullet.

The idea of me being a elite Corvette-driving polo shirt type did give my wife a good laugh. I still wear jeans to work, have a variety of cowboy hats from my ranch and rodeo days (along with a bum knee), and shock friends by running country music through my SDP-75/Trinnov. I will say summers on a farm made me the engineer I am today.

 

[Molon_Labe]

I don't know what a miata is, have no desire for a Corvette or Porsche (no ground clearance, I'll stick with my Jeep), and am not sure I own a polo shirt (probably, pretty sure it ain't a name brand). The Trinnov in all its complexity speaks to the geek in me, and does a better job than my previous Emotiva AVP and Pioneer Elite AVR sound-wise. As for measurements, REW and my old professional SW think Trinnov did a better job at bass integration, with impulse response better than the Emotiva (Dirac Live) and a hair better than I managed to achieve with my Pioneer after a lot of manual tweaking. But as I mentioned above, I needed 16 channels, and got tired of waiting for Emotiva, so when a refurbished SDP-75 came along for a good price I decided to bite the bullet.

The idea of me being a elite Corvette-driving polo shirt type did give my wife a good laugh. I still wear jeans to work, have a variety of cowboy hats from my ranch and rodeo days (along with a bum knee), and shock friends by running country music through my SDP-75/Trinnov. I will say summers on a farm made me the engineer I am today.

You have never come across that way Don with your Trinnov or Salon2's. That is why I said most Trinnov owners. I have friends with Trinnovs that are down to Earth, but the Trinnov thread on AVS is full of the eltiist snobbery. I actaully bought a Trinnov 16 but canceled the order because I felt guilty spending that much on an AVP when I had other hobbies demanding higher priority funding. Sounds like we could hang out. I am jeans, boots, ball cap, and diesel truck guy. Being in Texas, country music is a given. I do own a highly modified vette but its more of a drag car than a road track setup.

 

[jhenderson0107]

Discussions about audio equipment are vicious and bitter, because the stakes are so low.

 

[TimoJ]

To me, if the customer said "I prefer the Denon", then the obvious follow-up would be to ask what sounded better to identify why the difference, and work with the customer's preferences to show how the Trinnov could equal or better the Denon's performance. The Trinnov is pricey and somewhat complicated, so it's possible the salesman didn't feel it was worth the effort if the sale was not immediate, or perhaps he did not know how to adjust the Trinnov.

Denon's Audyssey probably had Dynamic EQ enabled i.e. loudness. How do you adjust Trinnov to compensate that? Multiple presets won't do it.

(btw. Monoprice HTP-1 has Dirac (and DLBC ) with 6 presets, loudness with two curves and level calibration, bass/treble with corner frequency adjustments and 16ch PEQ for each output. But it's currently unobtainium...)