Triangle Esprit Antal Ez Review (Tower Speaker)

[Rottmannash]

DAC? Sorry, but the DAC do not interact with speakers. Amps do. The Amp. is the one to deal with the 2.7 ohms impedance (not the DAC) and so it's the one to get control over it (DF, DACs have none relevant).
You see two speakers. I assume that the one without the grill is the Triangle. What I should assume about the Reel to Reel tape? the cabinet, the distance or the unit next to the cabinet, that to me, looks like a PC.
Didn't suggest any cable. Just asking what AWG it has, how long is it and what Amp is used. I'm asking, no suggesting. You have no idea what are the requirements. What makes you say that?
EQ is not about analog or digital implementation. Amir wrote that his first attempt didn't improve sound. EQ has bad effect on dynamic range (a 6 dB adjustment would cut power by 4. So a 100W amps turns into a 25W...). It also get into SNR and THD, two cable (In and Out) and more.
EQ is so 70's idea. we are way passed that approach. Look at the 10x more expensive speaker sounded, with no EQ. Would you EQ a $50k speaker?
So lets keep it out. It may do the job for teen agers that are hooked on bass. I'm more into a flat clear sound as is.

Do you think Amir will use thin cheap speaker wire from his $20,000 apiece MK #53's and his $20,000 Salon 2's?

 

[Rottmannash]

I fear your understanding of the role a high DF plays with respect to controlling the speaker is wrong. See the correct explanation in posting #104. Please keep in mind that this is physics so denying it without offering a scientific proof is rather ignorant.

You may also read about the different biases we humans suffer from. Citing subjective opinions of before/after comparisons without controlled conditions (blind/double blind, level matched) are not scientific proofs, regardless of their number. I know what I'm talking about since I fooled myself at least twice in my life.

I know we all think he's FOS but let's just assume the speakers were junk and the guy was using ordinary #14 AWG cable. How would changing the gauge to 0 have such a dramatic effect on the sound of his speakers w/ that amp? Or could it?

 

[B4ICU]

Do you think Amir will use thin cheap speaker wire from his $20,000 apiece MK #53's and his $20,000 Salon 2's?

I ask, not say.

 

[B4ICU]

I don't keep ignoring. I explicitly keep trying to point out that everything in current scientific understanding of circuit theory says that they are part of the analysis. I'm not exactly alone in this view. This sort of thing is taught very early on in undergraduate circuit theory. You would have a very hard time progressing out of a first year university electronics course without understanding this.

This issue has been one of the more strange and continued problems with non-scientists who mess about with misunderstandings of physics. Somehow physics seems to divided at the terminals of devices, and somehow the internals of a speaker are magically sacrosanct and do not enter into any analysis. Using 15 feet of 0 guage speaker cable will have its resistance totally overwhelmed by the few inches of cable connecting the speaker terminals to the crossover inside the box. But somehow, by a wave of a magic wand, it doesn't count. Nor do the hundreds of feet of inductor wire. Somehow, because they are "inside the speaker" that resistance doesn't count. The argument is hardly new. I have heard the same basic misunderstandings of circuit theory for at least the last 25 years.

But it is pure and simply wrong. Circuits don't work like that, and 150 years of science is pretty clear on this. Anecdotes of successful application of an idea, ones applied with no scientific process, don't somehow instantly disprove this. You might even have got a real improvement, but there is nothing that says that your reason for why it occurred is the reason it did.

I'm baffled from your replay. You talk high on science, not bringing any of yours, rely on others and claim what?
None of that explain a relation between Speaker cables to the Speakers or the Amp.
If you take the speaker side, as you did with a 6 ohms example, the wire is minor. Not only that, but by get it thicker, the more minor it affects the assumption that it does nothing! at the time it most effecting. That's not science, its Alchemy.
If you go my way, and look into the Amp's output, what you see (get to see in Spec. ) is the DF.
When you take a DF of 400 (8/400=0.02 ohms). That is about the resistance of a #13 AWg cable, 5m long. (https://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm). That explains my friends from Vancouver sound problem. His cable resistance was equal to his Amp's output Resistance. 50/50. So this is what a decent system sounds like with that ratio! It sounds 50/50 or in other words: poor. This is what you get with the average cables on the market, with #12 - #14 AWG. It's easy for the maker to connect to spades or banana plugs, But they still not good for the sound. It doesn't stop them from charging an arm and a leg and tell urban stories of snake oil and get a big applause for the last 25 years. A real shame for the audio hobby and heritage.

 

[B4ICU]

Look at the size of that cable he sold too that poor guy.

I'm so happy, that at least ONE fully understand me. Thanks.

 

[MerlinGS]

I'm baffled from your replay. You talk high on science, not bringing any of yours, rely on others and claim what?

That's not science, its Alchemy

Could you please give us an explanation of what constitutes science and alchemy. To quote Inigo Montoya "you keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means."

 

[LTig]

I'm baffled from your replay. You talk high on science, not bringing any of yours, rely on others and claim what?
None of that explain a relation between Speaker cables to the Speakers or the Amp.
If you take the speaker side, as you did with a 6 ohms example, the wire is minor. Not only that, but by get it thicker, the more minor it affects the assumption that it does nothing! at the time it most effecting. That's not science, its Alchemy.
If you go my way, and look into the Amp's output, what you see (get to see in Spec. ) is the DF.
When you take a DF of 400 (8/400=0.02 ohms). That is about the resistance of a #13 AWg cable, 5m long. (https://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm). That explains my friends from Vancouver sound problem. His cable resistance was equal to his Amp's output Resistance. 50/50. So this is what a decent system sounds like with that ratio! It sounds 50/50 or in other words: poor. This is what you get with the average cables on the market, with #12 - #14 AWG. It's easy for the maker to connect to spades or banana plugs, But they still not good for the sound. It doesn't stop them from charging an arm and a leg and tell urban stories of snake oil and get a big applause for the last 25 years. A real shame for the audio hobby and heritage.

Repeating your claims based on misunderstanding electronics and physics doesn’t make it any truer. And you might rethink your view what science is and how it works and enhances knowledge.

 

[LTig]

I know we all think he's FOS but let's just assume the speakers were junk and the guy was using ordinary #14 AWG cable. How would changing the gauge to 0 have such a dramatic effect on the sound of his speakers w/ that amp? Or could it?

No, it can't. Small variations of the FR of the speaker is all one can expect.

 

[B4ICU]

Repeating your claims based on misunderstanding electronics and physics doesn’t make it any truer. And you might rethink your view what science is and how it works and enhances knowledge.

Let's make a "U" turn. Please be kind to educate me what should the speaker cable be (AWG vs Length) and how to calculate it.
Do not refer me to any website. Bring your own knowledge to the table.
Thanks.

 

[Robbo99999]

Look at the size of that cable he sold too that poor guy.

Damn, I know, I looked it up when he posted it....gave me a bit of a chuckle!

 

[sarumbear]

Damn, I know, I looked it up when he posted it....gave me a bit of a chuckle!

Do you want to laugh out loud instead of a chuckle? Read this! Emphasis is mine, but spelling error isn't Prepare to pay up to $34,900 for 1 meter...

Magnetic Conduction
High Fidelity Cables uses Magnetic Conduction technology to enhance audio signals and ensure the highest quality sound in audio reproduction..

Magnetic Conduction is a new and unique technology that preserves signal inegrity by utilizing magnetism to enhance signal transfer. Magnetic Conduction consists of using magnetic fields with the precise strength, orientation, and dimensions as to concentrate electron flow inside the conductor.

The magnetic fields guide the electrons through the conductor in a more efficient manner than with standard electrical conduction, creating less distortion and interference. This new magnetic type of conduction lends itself to high-end audio reproduction, where you can hear massive improvements in clarity and experience the music the way it was meant to be heard.

https://www.highfidelitycables.com/

 

[amirm]

Let's make a "U" turn. Please be kind to educate me what should the speaker cable be (AWG vs Length) and how to calculate it.
Do not refer me to any website. Bring your own knowledge to the table.
Thanks.

Please not. This is a thread about a speaker review and not arguments about any and all things. I have issued a reply ban to you. Create a different thread if you want to argue your point. It does not belong in this thread.

 

[amirm]

Answering the question of wire anyway, my left monoblock has become faulty so I am using the right channel to drive the speaker. Needed a longer speaker cable so went into the bin and pulled out this snake sized Monster Audio speaker cable to use. You can actually see it on the floor on the right of Triangle speaker:

 

[sarumbear]

Please not. This is a thread about a speaker review and not arguments about any and all things. I have issued a reply ban to you. Create a different thread if you want to argue your point. It does not belong in this thread.

I agree with @amirm 100%. Without order how can we have a scientific debate? I got carried away on my last post about "Magnetic Conduction". I couldn't resist. I apologise.

 

[Robbo99999]

Do you want to laugh out loud instead of a chuckle? Read this! Emphasis is mine, but spelling error isn't Prepare to pay up to $34,900 for 1 meter...

Magnetic Conduction
High Fidelity Cables uses Magnetic Conduction technology to enhance audio signals and ensure the highest quality sound in audio reproduction..

Magnetic Conduction is a new and unique technology that preserves signal inegrity by utilizing magnetism to enhance signal transfer. Magnetic Conduction consists of using magnetic fields with the precise strength, orientation, and dimensions as to concentrate electron flow inside the conductor.

The magnetic fields guide the electrons through the conductor in a more efficient manner than with standard electrical conduction, creating less distortion and interference. This new magnetic type of conduction lends itself to high-end audio reproduction, where you can hear massive improvements in clarity and experience the music the way it was meant to be heard.

https://www.highfidelitycables.com/

Yes, that's horrible, people chancing on rich and unsuspecting 10 people to buy their product.....can't be too many more than that, but as long as it covers their advertising & other costs they've made some money.....crazy product, disgusting really, zero integrity companies.

 

[richard12511]

I don't remember the F328be. Maybe @amirm can tell what he had to correct to get a reliable result.

My doubts are only with ported tower speakers. I may start a thread to discuss the specific models I'm skeptical of, but I'm fairly convinced that the NFS is wrong in several cases. My current belief is that it's slightly off to majorly off for most of the towers measured, with speaker size correlating with just how off it is. My hope is we can figure out why the NFS is wrong in these cases, and then Klippel can come up with a way to correct the defect(software, firmware, measurement method diff, etc.). Given that bass is 30%, I think it's important to accurately assess bass extension.

Regarding bass extension a small speaker can have a lower f3 than a bigger one. F3 depends one volume and sensitivity, it goes down with volume and up with sensitivity. Typical cases are big PA speakers with very high sensitivity and an f3 around 50 Hz. A hifi speaker with the same size and much lower sensitivity would easily reach 30 Hz or lower.

I agree with this. Bookshelfs can definitely have legitimately deeper extension than floorstanders. However, in the cases of I'm skeptical of, the NFS reports also differ from manufacturer specs, some of which I trust(JBL, Revel).

For example, below are comparisons of the -6dB points for Revel speakers specs vs what the NFS says:

Speaker/ Spec. / NFS / Diff
Revel M16 / 50Hz / 45Hz / 5Hz
Revel F328Be / 26Hz / 48Hz / 22Hz
Revel M105 / 56Hz / 51Hz / 5Hz
Revel F208 / 26Hz / 43Hz / 17Hz

Also interesting is that Revel says that the F208 and F328Be have the same -6dB point, but the NFS says the F208 digs deeper. I'm thinking the NFS is just more wrong on the F328 than it is for the F208, and likely due to the former being a larger and more complex speaker to measure.

I think something similar may be going on here with the Triangle. Triangle lists the -3dB point as 40Hz, while the NFS says the -6dB point is 55Hz.


I feel bad having bringing this up in these threads, as I know it kinda gets on the nerves of Amir and Erin(and understandably so), but I'm only doing it to try and help improve the reviews to be even better and more accurate than they already are. Would love for Klippel to comment on what they think may be going wrong, or explain why the NFS is actually correct(and the manufacturers are wrong). If this should go in a different thread, I can direct this conversation elsewhere. I don't mean to cast doubt on this whole review, but rather just the bass extension.

 

[richard12511]

Let's make a "U" turn. Please be kind to educate me what should the speaker cable be (AWG vs Length) and how to calculate it.
Do not refer me to any website. Bring your own knowledge to the table.
Thanks.

I don't think anyone doubts that you perceive differences between cables. There is legitimate science to explain why you perceive those differences, but the science is also clear in that those reasons almost guaranteed have nothing to do with sound differences.

Unless you can show us DBX result showing that you can actually hear differences between cables, then the most likely explanation(Occam's Razor) is that you are simply perceiving differences, but not actually hearing them.

The human brain is very complex with all sorts of biases, which is why we need DBX.

 

[LTig]

Let's make a "U" turn. Please be kind to educate me what should the speaker cable be (AWG vs Length) and how to calculate it.
Do not refer me to any website. Bring your own knowledge to the table.
Thanks.

If I still had passive speakers (all active since 10+ years so I don't need to worry about speaker cables) I would calculate the cables such that their resistance is less than 5% of the minimum impedance of the speaker, to keep loss of voltage below 5%. If the speaker's impedance varies wildly I would calculate such that the loss in level between min and max impedance is below 0.2 dB.

EDIT: sorry, I had not read the thread ban message when I posted.

 

[LTig]

My doubts are only with ported tower speakers. I may start a thread to discuss the specific models I'm skeptical of, but I'm fairly convinced that the NFS is wrong in several cases. My current belief is that it's slightly off to majorly off for most of the towers measured, with speaker size correlating with just how off it is. My hope is we can figure out why the NFS is wrong in these cases, and then Klippel can come up with a way to correct the defect(software, firmware, measurement method diff, etc.). Given that bass is 30%, I think it's important to accurately assess bass extension.



I agree with this. Bookshelfs can definitely have legitimately deeper extension than floorstanders. However, in the cases of I'm skeptical of, the NFS reports also differ from manufacturer specs, some of which I trust(JBL, Revel).

For example, below are comparisons of the -6dB points for Revel speakers specs vs what the NFS says:

Speaker/ Spec. / NFS / Diff
Revel M16 / 50Hz / 45Hz / 5Hz
Revel F328Be / 26Hz / 48Hz / 22Hz
Revel M105 / 56Hz / 51Hz / 5Hz
Revel F208 / 26Hz / 43Hz / 17Hz

Also interesting is that Revel says that the F208 and F328Be have the same -6dB point, but the NFS says the F208 digs deeper. I'm thinking the NFS is just more wrong on the F328 than it is for the F208, and likely due to the former being a larger and more complex speaker to measure.

I think something similar may be going on here with the Triangle. Triangle lists the -3dB point as 40Hz, while the NFS says the -6dB point is 55Hz.

I still trust the NFS to show a correct spinorama. In those cases where it has been proven to be correct there was always another culprit - broken driver, too low temperature. Especially in the region below 100 Hz the NFS is more precise than most anechoic rooms because they are no loner anechoic (at least this is how I understand @amirm).

The NFS measures the speaker sitting/standing on a table and removes the influence of the floor reflection. Maybe measurements done by others not using the Klippel NFS show lower f3 because they measure the speaker standing on the floor? Maybe the PIR curve as calculated by the Klippel software does not properly consider the gain of the floor reflection when the speaker stands on the floor?

I feel bad having bringing this up in these threads, as I know it kinda gets on the nerves of Amir and Erin(and understandably so), but I'm only doing it to try and help improve the reviews to be even better and more accurate than they already are. Would love for Klippel to comment on what they think may be going wrong, or explain why the NFS is actually correct(and the manufacturers are wrong). If this should go in a different thread, I can direct this conversation elsewhere. I don't mean to cast doubt on this whole review, but rather just the bass extension.

No need to feel bad. Valid criticism is always welcome.

 

[beagleman]

Let's make a "U" turn. Please be kind to educate me what should the speaker cable be (AWG vs Length) and how to calculate it.
Do not refer me to any website. Bring your own knowledge to the table.
Thanks.

I will answer you.

Cable Gauge is NOT very important at all. With the VERY short runs typical in home installations, and in the audio frequency range (20-20,000Hz typically) the signal can not be degraded much at all, even with thin wire (18-say 22 Ga)

There simply is not a way for the signal to degrade over 10-20 ft of wire, with audio signals.

Excuse me for not going all into the reasoning, but it is common knowledge, at least to me and while I do hold a degree in electronics, I think it is still something that most lay people seem to realize also.