Triangle Borea BR03

[Deleted member 14468]

Doug, thanks for the thoughtful response. In that vein, then, the Klippel system that Amir uses is doing quite a lot more spatial and frequency measurements to produce the charts and derived information. To your way of thinking, is that data reliable?

I believe so, yes -- at least now. We used the Klippel system back when it was a prototype, since we knew people experimenting with it. It seems greatly improved and will get you around the speaker in ways that are very difficult with traditional measurements in a chamber.

That said, you still have to be able to interpret all that data. Harman has done a bang-up job doing that work -- correlating an encompassing set of measurements with what most listeners prefer.

Still, that doesn't mean that EVERYONE will automatically like it. As our own Brent Butterworth said (he runs a headphone site for us called www.SoundStageSolo.com), everyone should listen to the AKG K371 headphones, which use the Harman target curve, if only to know what the bulk of listeners like. There are always outliers.

Where I think a lot of work needs to be done still, however, is bass-level preference, for speakers and for headphones. This is REALLY tricky still -- and the amount of bass can have an enormous effect on what sounds good and bad. Our reviewer Diego Estan just wrote about this on www.SoundStageAccess.com.

https://www.soundstageaccess.com/index.php/feature-articles/1046-bass-how-much-is-enough

Doug Schneider
SoundStage!

 

[Deleted member 14468]

I meant close in terms of preference rating calculated by method developed by Olive.

I'm not really sure. You'd have to get all around both speakers and then see where they come out. I wouldn't jump to that conclusion. What I can tell you is that the BR03 does sound excellent. I haven't listened to the Elac you mentioned.

Doug Schneider
SoundStage!

 

[Deleted member 14468]

I'd say the SoundStage! measurements are better overall because of their accuracy and consistency of presentation.

Thanks. But where that Klippel system obviously excels is the volume of curves, which are much more telling. I have a lot of respect for it.

Doug Schneider
SoundStage!

 

[QMuse]

I'm not really sure. You'd have to get all around both speakers and then see where they come out. I wouldn't jump to that conclusion. What I can tell you is that the BR03 does sound excellent. I haven't listened to the Elac you mentioned.

Doug Schneider
SoundStage!

Sure, hard to tell for sure without BR03 being measured here as well. And yes, I don't have problem believing you that BR03 sounds decent.

 

[Deleted member 14468]

Well, according to Toole it is linear off-axis response that matters, not distortion, and in that context Stereophile provides more measurements than Soundstage!.

Actually they don't. We go to 75 degrees off axis, each displayed individually. They do a 30-degree window in front, but that's simply 15 degrees each way. In that regard, our Listening Window, which is on-axis as well as four at 15-degree increments left, right, up, and down, is more telling. There's is a horizontal set of measurements done to 90 degrees, but that's normalized to a flat center line, which I find doesn't tell anything.

I think Toole maybe getting taken out of context saying distortion doesn't matter -- it does, though it's further down on the list. But it matters greatly in that I can tell you with 100% confidence that our distortion measurements have changed the designs of at least 15 very expensive loudspeakers when, after we measured them, they saw how poorly they performed in that regard. Subsequent iterations from them were much better.

Distortion shows up in the sound, of course, but also shows driver robustness, etc.

Doug Schneider
SoundStage!

 

[QMuse]

Actually they don't. We go to 75 degrees off axis, each displayed individually. They do a 30-degree window in front, but that's simply 15 degrees each way. In that regard, our Listening Window, which is on-axis as well as four at 15-degree increments left, right, up, and down, is more telling. There's is a horizontal set of measurements done to 90 degrees, but that's normalized to a flat center line, which I find doesn't tell anything.

I think Toole maybe getting taken out of context saying distortion doesn't matter -- it does, though it's further down on the list. But it matters greatly in that I can tell you with 100% confidence that our distortion measurements have changed the designs of at least 15 very expensive loudspeakers when, after we measured them, they saw how poorly they performed in that regard. Subsequent iterations from them were much better.

Distortion shows up in the sound, of course, but also shows driver robustness, etc.

Doug Schneider
SoundStage!

I do find your Listening window more informative but I don't agree that their horizontal set of measurements doesn't tell anything. Are you saying that only because it is normalised to a flat line? I would indeed prefere if it wasn't.

I like to see distortion measurement but I'm never sure how reliable it can be when measured in room. Are you using sweep or stepped sine when making yours?

 

[Deleted member 14468]

I do find your Listening window more informative but I don't agree that their horizontal set of measurements doesn't tell anything. Are you saying that only because it is normalised to a flat line? ... Are you using sweep or stepped sine when making yours?

Yes, the normalization. That's not intuitive to me. I want to see exactly what it all is.

We use stepped sine wave from 20kHz to 20Hz, 1/24th octave.

Thanks,
Doug
SoundStage!

 

[Ron Texas]

$550/pair in the US, plus sales tax in most states. The measurements from NRC look on the bumpy side to me. For that money one could get Elac DBR-62's which are known performers.

 

[QMuse]

Yes, the normalization. That's not intuitive to me. I want to see exactly what it all is.

We use stepped sine wave from 20kHz to 20Hz, 1/24th octave.

Thanks,
Doug
SoundStage!

I agree with that, normalization kind of beats the purpose and hides the actual thing, although probably not everyone would agree with that.

IMHO stepped sine is indeed the way to measure THD.

 

[syknetz]

$550/pair in the US, plus sales tax in most states. The measurements from NRC look on the bumpy side to me. For that money one could get Elac DBR-62's which are known performers.

Yep, but in Europe the Triangles are 350€, and the ELAC's are either hardly available, or nearer the 600€ mark. Regional and temporary pricing may very much make a speaker vary in its value.

 

[Ron Texas]

Yep, but in Europe the Triangles are 350€, and the ELAC's are either hardly available, or nearer the 600€ mark. Regional and temporary pricing may very much make a speaker vary in its value.

You are correct. That's why we should give our location in hopes of improving international understanding. Half of the forum members are not in the USA.

 

[Deleted member 14468]

Yep, but in Europe the Triangles are 350€, and the ELAC's are either hardly available, or nearer the 600€ mark. Regional and temporary pricing may very much make a speaker vary in its value.

That's a VERY good point. Prices vary greatly as to where in the world you are.

Doug Schneider
SoundStage!

 

[Desmo]

Thanks for the feedback so far!

It has been an interesting discussion.
Also thanks to Doug Schneider for explaining their measurements.

I'am also from Europe, so speaker brands from Europe like Triangle
or Elac are better value over here. The Revel M16 for example, cost
€1100 a pair in the Netherlands. For that kind of money you can buy
the Elac Debut Reference floorstanding speakers here.

 

[CDMC]

I'am looking for a nice pair of budget bookshelf speakers.

I currently have a pair of Totem Mite speakers. They are great, but I feel I could do better
with a modern speaker and a little bit more low end extension.

Soundstageaccess.com measured the Triangle Borea BR03 speakers.

https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/i...&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153

Sadly I'am a complete noob in reading these measurements without some explanation, so could
someone please fill me in if these measurments are any good and trustworthy?

Thanks in advance!

Going back to the original post. I have a set of Totem Mite speakers sitting on the shelf and am very familiar with them. A few questions that may help us get you pointed in the right direction:

1) What are you powering the speakers with?
2) How big is your room?
3) How loud to you listen? While this is subjective, would your consider your self to listen to them at low background levels, mid levels, or crank it up and rock out?
4) Aside from wanting a bit more low end extension, what else do you want to change from your Mites?
5) What is your budget?
6) Do you have space limitations? i.e. are these on a desktop, is a floorstanding speaker an option?

 

[Desmo]

Going back to the original post. I have a set of Totem Mite speakers sitting on the shelf and am very familiar with them. A few questions that may help us get you pointed in the right direction:

1) What are you powering the speakers with?
2) How big is your room?
3) How loud to you listen? While this is subjective, would your consider your self to listen to them at low background levels, mid levels, or crank it up and rock out?
4) Aside from wanting a bit more low end extension, what else do you want to change from your Mites?
5) What is your budget?
6) Do you have space limitations? i.e. are these on a desktop, is a floorstanding speaker an option?

1) My amplifier is a Denon PMA-800NE.
2) My room is 13 by 7 feet with a open kitchen attached to it.
3) I listen most of the time low to mid level with music and movies.
4) Aside from a bit more low level I don't feel I am missing much with the Totem Mites.
5) My budget is around $800.
6) I don't have space limitations. The Mites are on sand filled speaker stands and around 2 feet from the front wall.

Thanks in advance!

 

[CDMC]

There are two roads that will get you what you want:

1) Add a subwoofer, or
2) Go to floorstanding speaker.

A quick primer on basic speaker physics. There is a rule called Hoffman's law that says the amount bass from a speaker is tradeoff between 1) enclosure volume, 2) driver efficiency, and 3) extension. Want a small enclosure with decent bass, you will need a good amount of amplifier power. Use a large enclosure and you can have less power and get deeper bass.

The Mites are a pretty good speaker. They are not as bright as most Totems, but do suffer from a bit of what I would call woolyness in the midbass and some cabinet resonances. All in all they are a pleasant speaker for listening to music.

So here are my recommendations (noting that I don't have pricing for european brands, but have an idea):

1) For a subwoofer which will have to be run off your speaker outputs, I would look SVS which appears to be option, the SB-1000 or PB-1000 is a good choice.
2) For speakers you may want to consider the Elac DF-62 or the Dynaudio M30. Both as floorstanding speakers will dual 6.5" drivers will get you better bass extension and capability than your Mites, but not as much output capability as a seperate subwoofer. If you want to more bass from stand mount speakers, the ELAC DBR-62 as recommended above are an excellent choice, but I would go with a floor standing speaker if possible.

You may also want to consider used speakers which will get you very nice speakers in your budget. Unlike many used items, used high end audio equipment is rarely abused. Hifishark can search your local used audio sites. With your setup and listening preferences, I would lean towards replacing the speakers with floor standing speakers which will get you additional bass but also improved sound across the board.

 

[Desmo]

Thanks for the advice!

I have had a subwoofer in the past but i couldn't get used to it. Kept tinkering with it.
Always had a feeling it could sound better. Made me tired of myself .

I am also leaning towards a floorstander. It has to have a soft dome tweeter because
I don't like bright speakers so the Elac DF-62 and Dynaudio M30 are good choices.
They will also give my movie experience a boost.

 

[tuga]

Yes.... MANY more measurements -- and the ability to interpret them. That will get you far closer to making a more accurate conclusion. Trying to make judgments with too few measurements is a pitfall many make. In fact, back when we started doing measurements, in 2000, all the designers I talked to gave me this piece of advice -- don't try to glean too much about what the ways something sounds from too few measurements. In fact, that's why I believe in magazines like Stereophile, where the FR measurements are fewer, there is no distortion or compression, they often fail to correlate with what the reviewer heard. Quite simply, they're not working with enough data.

Doug Schneider
SoundStage!

On the other hand Stereophile produces upper-mid and treble CSD measurements as well as (admitedly rather coarse) ones of cabinet resonances, in-room response, nearfield independent measurements of ports and woofers, step and sometimes impulse response.

I think it is hard to dispute that both measurement sets are incomplete thus complementary.

 

[tuga]

Yes, the normalization. That's not intuitive to me. I want to see exactly what it all is.

Ah, but this would be unflattering to many highly-praised high-end speakers, and some manufacturers would not allow for measurements of their products to be performed/published (something which is probably already happening anyway).

 

[MZKM]

Still, that doesn't mean that EVERYONE will automatically like it. As our own Brent Butterworth said (he runs a headphone site for us called www.SoundStageSolo.com), everyone should listen to the AKG K371 headphones, which use the Harman target curve, if only to know what the bulk of listeners like. There are always outliers.

This is more true to headphones than speakers. IEMs especially (bypass the pinna) have almost meaningless measurements unless you know what your personal target curve is in relation to the specific measurement rig used (two different reviewers can measure the same headphone/IEM and get totally different looking graphs, due to differences in the measurement rig).

For both setups, listening level plays a huge role unless you have an adaptive EQ. People who listen at lower levels will want more of a v-shape.