Triangle Borea BR03

[Deleted member 14468]

Doug, thanks for the thoughtful response. In that vein, then, the Klippel system that Amir uses is doing quite a lot more spatial and frequency measurements to produce the charts and derived information. To your way of thinking, is that data reliable?

As far as I can tell, it is reliable.

Doug
SoundStage!

 

[Deleted member 14468]

Well, according to Toole it is linear off-axis response that matters, not distortion, and in that context Stereophile provides more measurements than Soundstage!.

As much as I admire Stereophile's attempts at providing measurements, performing them in a living room, listening room, driveway, or backyard really sets them back far. To me, they're kind of a guide more than anything serious.

Doug
SoundStage!

 

[Deleted member 14468]

Well, according to Toole it is linear off-axis response that matters, not distortion, and in that context Stereophile provides more measurements than Soundstage!.

Actually, we provide more off-axis measurements than Stereophile -- the Listening Window plus out to 75 degrees. ASR obviously provides the most.

Doug Schneider
SoundStage!

 

[Canuck57]

That's a nice thought, but it's not really very helpful or meaningful. It might work for a short while, until one day we visit a friend who has a nice system and we hear his speakers in his room and we think "damn! Those sound fantastic! Hmmmmm..." and then the game begins again. lol. I think the fundamental, most important thing I've learned over the past few years is that our ears and our brains combined are lying liars who lie! Our hearing fools us. Constantly. We cannot trust our ears to give us reliable, honest information. Measurements give us a way to compare things that doesn't rely on our weird, easily-fooled and misleading ears.

You're assuming that my friend's speakers sound better to me because they measure better. What if they sound better to me but my friend's speakers actually measure worse. At the end of the day, I wouldn't buy speaker A because they measure better but sound worse to me than speaker B.

I believe in measurements, however, with speakers it's seems to be more of an issue with personal preference.

 

[QMuse]

As much as I admire Stereophile's attempts at providing measurements, performing them in a living room, listening room, driveway, or backyard really sets them back far. To me, they're kind of a guide more than anything serious.

Doug
SoundStage!

In-room measurements presented on this forum by @napilopez and backyard measurements presented by @hardisj prove that it can be done accurately, if done the right way of course.

 

[Deleted member 14468]

In-room measurements presented on this forum by @napilopez and backyard measurements presented by @hardisj prove that it can be done accurately, if done the right way of course.

Yes, I agree. To do so takes tremendous effort and also knowledge -- plus you need a good verification system in place. But, yes it can.

Doug
SoundStage!

 

[hardisj]

Yes, I agree. To do so takes tremendous effort and also knowledge -- plus you need a good verification system in place. But, yes it can.

Doug
SoundStage!

Yep. You have to be willing to put in the work. And you have to be able to read and understand the data as it relates to your specific measurement system/methods to understand where the pitfalls are (i.e., reflection issues, improper aiming, low resolution in the midrange due to gating at a low window-time). It took me 2 entire days to measure the Revel F226Be. Two. Days. And that is just frequency response. My data is within ±1dB of Harman's own data, though, so I consider it a win.

But, yes, if a person who does not have access to either the NFS or an anechoic chamber wants to publish reliable and accurate data they can do so. They just need time, knowledge, good weather and patience.

- Erin

 

[Deleted member 26836]

I would skip them. They have both sharp and broad discontinuities in the on-axis frequency response, the latter being more audible, and the off-axis shows similar problems.

• On-axis: Sound directly in front of the speaker. This is the main line in the graph.
• Off-axis: Sound off to the side by steps in degrees. These are the sloping lines.

Ideal is for the response to the completely flat on-axis, and sloping downwards smoothly off-axis.

Yeah what it is up with the elite (palm reading) frequency response summary? Why do so many log in waiting with anticipation if one of the forum leaders will like the speaker they like; then cry when the thumbs down arrives - based on a graph? I like the measurements section, though I am not sure they are accurate or precise. But the gotta the love the skip-em cult following along.

 

[pozz]

Yeah what it is up with the elite (palm reading) frequency response summary? Why do so many log in waiting with anticipation if one of the forum leaders will like the speaker they like; then cry when the thumbs down arrives - based on a graph? I like the measurements section, though I am not sure they are accurate or precise. But the gotta the love the skip-em cult following along.

You're free to give a contrary interpretation.

 

[richard12511]

I like the measurements section, though I am not sure they are accurate or precise.

What leads you to believe that the NFS might not be accurate or precise?

 

[Chromatischism]

Yeah what it is up with the elite (palm reading) frequency response summary? Why do so many log in waiting with anticipation if one of the forum leaders will like the speaker they like; then cry when the thumbs down arrives - based on a graph? I like the measurements section, though I am not sure they are accurate or precise. But the gotta the love the skip-em cult following along.

I both agree and disagree. The measurements are generally accurate however they can be easily misinterpreted. Subtle variations can make speakers sound different and without a lot of experience with speakers it isn't possible (IMO) for a layperson to know which curve they should choose and why. It can be easy to develop tunnel-vision and focus too intently on one aspect of a measurement, develop a knee-jerk reaction and lose sight of the bigger picture. It's also possible for the reviewer to have an objectively good product that they just didn't prefer. This is called an outlier.

I'll give one example. The Buchardt S400 is one of the better measuring speakers, yet the owner here didn't prefer the sound. The recommendation was based almost entirely on the subjective listen, which, while important, is only one data point and not the final word. Yet if you take a sampling online of all the reviews, including both "professional" and regular users in forums trying them vs other speakers, the results are very consistent. They are well-liked and often preferred over other popular options in their price range.

Yes, that is also true of some speakers that measure poorly, like many B&W's or the Triangle Borea. There are users who sing their praises, too. However (and this is my opinion) in most of those cases the users likely haven't heard better speakers so there is not much to compare to. I praised my Infinity Primus and EMP Impressions speakers when I was new to the hobby but I have since moved on to better speakers. And the same applies to moving up from there. It's likely a $7k pair of speakers like the Buchardt A700 or Revel F226be will sound much better than what I currently have, but until I hear them I don't have that as a point of comparison. You get what I'm saying. I'm sorry if this offends anyone. None intended.

 

[Deleted member 26836]

I would skip them. They have both sharp and broad discontinuities in the on-axis frequency response, the latter being more audible, and the off-axis shows similar problems.

• On-axis: Sound directly in front of the speaker. This is the main line in the graph.
• Off-axis: Sound off to the side by steps in degrees. These are the sloping lines.

Ideal is for the response to the completely flat on-axis, and sloping downwards smoothly off-axis.

Yes, skip them based on the plots... Budget speaker needs to completely flat with ideal off-axis response. So far nothing under 2000 worth buying on this sight. However, shots are taken at audiophiles who only listen to speakers and not measure; now we measure but don't listen. Great progress being made... When you do listen, very particular taste by the oracle is the only way to survive the gauntlet. DBR62, sound flat, low dynamics, and power hungry - but all over them?

 

[Deleted member 26836]

What leads you to believe that the NFS might not be accurate or precise?

P5 psb speakers have two measurements from members in this sight, second one much better based on a different axis used. Which is different from Stereophile and Soundstage (NRC). No one here attempted to discuss this, guess too late as the match was lit.

 

[pozz]

@DGGinc I see. Just FYI we have gone deep into the different measurement techniques of each source.

The measurements Soundstage makes in the NRC chamber are better than many sources due to their accuracy, but they are not comprehensive because they only test a limited number of angles. Speakers radiate sound in 360° after all, just not evenly. The unevenness is important and says a lot about how speakers behave, which is why the Klippel data or any other source based on the CEA 2034 spin method is so useful.

Stereophile uses a quasi-anechoic technique which has limited accuracy for the bass region. The main plot is actually an average of several horizontal and vertical angles (called a "listening window"), with the bass region measured separately and spliced into the plot. You'll see that a lot of speakers they measure show a broad upwards bump in the bass. This is a measurement artefact, not the true response of the speaker.

I've made a list of all measurements sources I could find online here: https://bit.ly/asrmetadatabasegsheet They are ranked by quality of measurements and the presentation. The differences between each are important, of course. Some sources are way more useful than others. Also important to understand, given the sheer number of sources, is that many people outside of ASR find this information useful and come to similar judgements.

You can also go here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/master-review-index.11398/ There is a list of articles, books and other resources about how loudspeakers or other audio gear is designed and how it is ultimately assessed.

It may not be obvious, but measurement data brings us consumers closer to the science responsible for the invention of these devices and the professionals who ultimately design what we buy. We get to see some of what they see and understand their choices, particularly the compromises they decided were worthwhile.