Translating measured DAC specs to audible qualities heard.

[Killingbeans]

"A Dac that doesn't "dig deep" into the bass" or "lacks bottom end" -- -----------------------> Rolled-off low-end freq response, inability to drive input at low frequency
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------high capacitive inductance (1/2PiFC) rolling off the response.

Frequency response. Don't see any reason why a DAC would be designed with low-end roll-off, and the interconnects would have to be of an absurd design to cause it. Most likely an imaginary effect.

"Wide soundstage", "deep soundstage"----------------------------------------------------------->low-level linearity? frequency repsonse? non-linear phase relationship?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------after listening to Amir's Youtube about phase I don't think phase is it
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------s/n? sinad?

Speakers + rooms, not DACs.

"Harsh" or "etched" high frequency----------------------------------------------------------------->tilted up frequency response? odd-order harmonics? ultrasonic artifacts?

Elevated highs (again.. would point to the designer/engineer being grossly incompetent), or possibly a massive amount of harmonic distortion.

"spatial cues" or "reverberation/echoes" or detailed "locational information"--------------------->low-level linearity? s/n? d/range? sinad?

Speakers + rooms, not DACs.

"smooth" or "liquid" midrange------------------------------------------------------------------------>sinad? even-order harmonics?
"warm" sounding or "dry" sounding------------------------------------------------------------------->freq response shelving? even order harmonics?
"airy highs"----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------> no idea

Frequency response. Again; what DAC on the market does not have a flat response? Hate to sound like a broken record, but *cough* placebo! *cough*.

"holographic placement of instruments/vocals"-------------------------------------------------------> no idea

Speakers + rooms, not DACs.

"black" background or "dark" background--------------------------------------------------------------> low power supply noise? better power supply regulation?

SNR. Not necessarily anything to do with the supply voltages.

 

[dasdoing]

"holographic placement of instruments/vocals"

few first reflections and again phase coherence between speakers

 

[Deleted member 23982]

you forgot "attack" specially on basses, a big role probably is impulse response

 

[Deleted member 23982]

"spatial cues" or "reverberation/echoes" or detailed "locational information"--------------------->low-level linearity? s/n? d/range? sinad?

absolute phase plays a role in this too

"A Dac that doesn't "dig deep" into the bass" or "lacks bottom end" -- -----------------------> Rolled-off low-end freq response, inability to drive input at low frequency

i specially heared this with changing capacitors, nichicon KZ sounds the most flat and elevates deep basses compared to others (also opamps do changes here), atleast subjectivly i doubt that the FR is really changing tho

 

[Killingbeans]

a big role probably is impulse response

When talking about electrical signals, what information do you get from an impulse response that you can't get from the frequency response?

 

[Deleted member 23982]

When talking about electrical signals, what information do you get from an impulse response that you can't get from the frequency response?

well 1. it was just a guess and 2. how the FR tells you how "fast" the speakers react? its not just "yea frequency is there"....

 

[voodooless]

When talking about electrical signals, what information do you get from an impulse response that you can't get from the frequency response?

Phase and decay

 

[Killingbeans]

2. how the FR tells you how "fast" the speakers react? its not just "yea frequency is there"....

We are not talking about speakers, but electrical signals. An impulse as a signal is a sum of all frequencies the device is capable of reproducing.

A pure bass tone will never feel like it's "fast" or "attacking" you. It's slooooow. When you hear a punchy bass, it's a mix of frequencies.

 

[Deleted member 23982]

We are not talking about speakers, but electrical signals.

i think we are talking about the whole digital to soundwave thing....

A pure bass tone will never feel like it's "fast" or "attacking" you. It's slooooow. When you hear a punchy bass, it's a mix of frequencies.

yep and something can sound like its "fast attacking" instead of more damp or whatever

 

[Killingbeans]

i think we are talking about the whole digital to soundwave thing....

OP wants to know what poetry about DACs translates to in real life. Line level outputs

 

[solderdude]

i think we are talking about the whole digital to soundwave thing....

OP was asking about a DAC and its supposed sonic qualities and how these subjective descriptions would translate to measurements.

yep and something can sound like its "fast attacking" instead of more damp or whatever

But can DAC's really do that ?
Can one record this (using an ADC ?) I mean if you can hear it it can be recorded.
One can then use those recordings (directly from DAC output), make the files have the same amplitude and then ABX the files.
When there are clear audible differences that should be easy to AB (fast bass v.s. fart bass).
One can even null the files and the difference file should then show the fastness that is lacking in the fart bass.

 

[Blumlein 88]

OP was asking about a DAC and its supposed sonic qualities and how these subjective descriptions would translate to measurements.



But can DAC's really do that ?
Can one record this (using an ADC ?) I mean if you can hear it it can be recorded.
One can then use those recordings (directly from DAC output), make the files have the same amplitude and then ABX the files.
When there are clear audible differences that should be easy to AB (fast bass v.s. fart bass).
One can even null the files and the difference file should then show the fastness that is lacking in the fart bass.

You need an analog magic to digital converter. AMDC not ADC.

 

[tvrgeek]

99.9% of your comparisons I suggest are editors trying to come up with something to say when they don't hear any difference or it is very slight. As electronics are getting really good, they are going to have a tough time. What does a Bryston or Benchmark amp sound like? They don't.

DACs do sound different. Clearly with good headphones, small differences around the noise floor can be heard. Some are harsher than others. Not EQ, as a cheap dongle is darn near ruler flat. Maybe, low output drive into a poorly designed amp which can cause considerable distortion. Distortion can be cumulative, so it could be some reviews are just compounding everything from the source to their ears and a small difference reaches their threshold of hearing. Or maybe mostly BS. I wish I was not having to return my D30pro so I could compare filters and see what effect on soundstage. Or compare the Schit R2R DACs as they claim, ad speak here, "it is all about timing" Fine, but how many D/S dacs has it run through before you got it? At the end point, we just want to not mess it up any more. The last time I could believe it was about timing was my original Sheffield D2D records.

Of course not all differences are good. Cable makers have been selling us distortion for years claiming it is better. Better for their wallet, not your music.

 

[Killingbeans]

Cable makers have been selling us distortion for years claiming it is better.

Distortion from cables? Can you give an example?

 

[Deleted member 23982]

Distortion from cables? Can you give an example?

dont question it..... what he means is this -> cable dont make a difference, ONLY if they are "so bad" that they distort .... atleast thats my guess

 

[Killingbeans]

Yeah, but distortion? I can imagine an absurdly designed "boutique" cable causing treble roll off, but what circumstances would result in distortion?

 

[Deleted member 23982]

Yeah, but distortion? I can imagine an absurdly designed "boutique" cable causing treble roll off, but what circumstances would result in distortion?

" a cable cant color the sound " so they come up with the next best thing that is measureable... (as a joke)

the thing i heared with better cables was better highs / better bass and specially smoother sibiliance (sibiliance is a easy one to look/hear out for)
and with "better" i mean better than those -> https://www.thomann.de/de/cordial_ctm_3_fm_mikrokabel_schwarz.htm (tho not that much more expensive, i did diy ones)

 

[Killingbeans]

the thing i heared with better cables was better highs / better bass and specially smoother sibiliance (sibiliance is a easy one to look/hear out for)
and with "better" i mean better than those -> https://www.thomann.de/de/cordial_ctm_3_fm_mikrokabel_schwarz.htm (tho not that much more expensive, i did diy ones)

Cordial is a good non-BS brand. I would be surprised if they made cables with actual audible defects (cold solder joints and what have you).

I know I seem like a militant knob who just mindlessly repeat the same mantra again and again, but... I suspect that the improvements you are hearing from your DIY cables are simply caused by expectation bias.

 

[Deleted member 23982]

I know I seem like a militant knob who just mindlessly repeat the same mantra again and again, but... I suspect that the improvements you are hearing from your DIY cables are simply caused by expectation bias.

maybe, probably not because i can go back and forth and i dont think my mindset is like "forever" changed because the cables are change even with not thinking about it ( unless once again i get a nice spit in the face to say it overdramatic )
and the sibiliance improve was kinda like mp3 vs flac (yea this one improves sibiliance too)
the changes can go from very subtil to very obvious depending on how you see things
fr changes are ->waaay<- more obvious to put it that way

 

[Killingbeans]

maybe, probably not because i can go back and forth and i dont think my mindset is like "forever" changed because the cables are change even with not thinking about it ( unless once again i get a nice spit in the face to say it overdramatic )

You'd be surprised how much our minds can f¤¤k with our perceptions. It doesn't even have to imaginary. If you subconsciously expect a better definement of sibiliance, you'll also subconsciously focus more on the treble region, and presto; you hear more defined sibiliance.

Not saying that everything and anything is placebo, but in the cases where the only argument people have for an effect being real is "science doesn't know everything yet!", it very likely is just that... placebo.

I've been there. I've spent decades obsessing over the "sound" of op-amps, capacitors and all other kinds of components. I based my ideas on countless campfire stories woven from subjective impressions. I didn't stop to consider whether any of it had been verified in a reliable manner. Only when I finally took a deep breath and crunched the numbers, while looking at the tedious research people have made into the actual limitations of human hearing, did I realise how much I had been fooling myself. It hurt my ego a little at first, but now I'm just thankful that I can focus my energy on things that give real and effective results. Not saying that having the practice of indulging in the auditory impressions from placebo as a hobby should not be allowed. Personally I'd just like to have a clear picture of what's actually going on, and I don't like it when people are blind to the distinction.