Towelgate: AV123 GR Research X-Voce Speaker Review (Video)

[TonyJZX]

Amir has shares in Bed Bath & Beyond (Nasdaq: BBBY)

 

[René - Acculution.com]

I do a review related to him every 3 to 4 months. I don't see how that makes it relentless. In this case, a member approached me to test this speaker and here we are. If it had performed well it would have garnered praise. I am not in control of flaws in his work that generated results otherwise.

Danny sometimes modifies speakers that measure better initially than what you have measured here, so if he wants to be critical of other people's designs, I think it is fair if other people are critical of his designs.

 

[René - Acculution.com]

There is no doubt Danny Ritchie and similar people such as Mike Marrow and Caelin Gabriel are very passionate about the HiFi hobby. They probably did a lot of tinkering; their passion and the tinkering (and illusion of grandeur) led them to believe that they have some kind of talent and that they can built great products.

But there is something wrong, they did not go and get the proper training. Like Amir said in the video, if you want to be a doctor, you need to go to med school, get the proper training. They didn't, either because they simply don't have chops to pass mustard (because these technical trainings are very hard) or they are delusional and make up the science in their head. So now these people end up being audio witch doctors.

Exactly. Those who say that education is not important typically don't have the education to evaluate that statement.

 

[TonyJZX]

well i think its even worse than that

look at the various scenarios

these people are maybe 'true beleivers' - they dont believe in the science and so its their way and no other way so they are
'faith healers'

or

they know their stuff is faulty but its in their personal interest to push bad products but they have no way or inclination to produce better products

or

they produce bad products because that's all that's in their repertoire... that's all they can do so that's all they can sell...

 

[CleanSound]

Exactly. Those who say that education is not important typically don't have the education to evaluate that statement.

Totally.

While I would agree that for certain professions, real world hands on experience is more important.

But there are certain professions, you need the proper training and engineering is one of them. Otherwise, a witch doctor may build a bridge that will collapse and cost people's lives. Luckily in this case, it's only a crappy designed speaker and the only thing it can cause harm to are your ears and wallet.

 

[dukanvadet]

Its amazing to me how he has so high thoughts about himself when often proven wrong. If he would own his mistakes and try to correct them he would appear so much more likeable and i think it would probably help his business as well.

 

[CleanSound]

Its amazing to me how he has so high thoughts about himself when often proven wrong. If he would own his mistakes and try to correct them he would appear so much more likeable and i think it would probably help his business as well.

Con-artistry 101

To con your victims, you must present yourself as the utmost authority. You must be confident. As an confident authority, you cannot be wrong. And when someone speaks out, presenting evidence of your con, your discredit them, like what Danny Ritchie has done to Amir and anyone else who calls his BS.

To be a good con artist, you do not need to be the smartest, you just need to be smarter than those who you wish to con. And believe me, there are enough dumb people in this world to create a market for your con artisan business model to work. But the trick to make your con artisan business model work is that you need to make sure you control the message and keep your followers ignorant. So when someone like Amir comes along, you need to discredit them and sweep them under the rug.

Having said all that, Danny Ritchie has no intention to convert his con artisan business into a real business, hence, he has no intent to make his products better.

 

[pseudoid]

Is Danny an engineer?

I thought you said "Is Danny in danger???"

 

[JSmith]

To be a good con artist, you do not need to be the smartest, you just need to be smarter than those who you wish to con.

I would have to add, not always... mostly what is required is the will, dishonesty and a lack of morality. Tie that in with a person of above average intelligence though and we have a right piece of work.


JSmith

 

[nawfal07]

Awesome video! This is exciting.

 

[JSmith]

clown

JSmith

 

[kemmler3D]

But there is something wrong, they did not go and get the proper training.

Unless you want to push the state of the art, you don't need true formal training to build speakers or crossovers. Just the basics of electronics and acoustics, and a willingness to learn and make a lot of careful measurements.

Most of us, if our lives depended on it, given a year or two, could design a speaker worth buying. Nothing that would set new records or top any charts, but something vaguely competent.

What is just as hard, or harder than building a worthwhile speaker, is figuring out how to sell enough, so that you can manufacture enough, to do it at a reasonable MSRP and make a profit.

If you want to push the state of the art, you probably need formal training, at least in some engineering discipline. You will need to make use of advanced simulations, which requires an investment of time and money that joe 6-pack will find daunting.

From this point of view, I think Danny's biggest flaws are 1) not being careful enough about measurements 2) pushing snake oil theories along with the measurements. I haven't watched his videos but there seems to be a pretty arrogant vibe about him.

 

[CleanSound]

Unless you want to push the state of the art, you don't need true formal training to build speakers or crossovers. Just the basics of electronics and acoustics, and a willingness to learn and make a lot of careful measurements.

Most of us, if our lives depended on it, given a year or two, could design a speaker worth buying. Nothing that would set new records or top any charts, but something vaguely competent.

What is just as hard, or harder than building a worthwhile speaker, is figuring out how to sell enough, so that you can manufacture enough, to do it at a reasonable MSRP and make a profit.

If you want to push the state of the art, you probably need formal training, at least in some engineering discipline. You will need to make use of advanced simulations, which requires an investment of time and money that joe 6-pack will find daunting.

From this point of view, I think Danny's biggest flaws are 1) not being careful enough about measurements 2) pushing snake oil theories along with the measurements. I haven't watched his videos but there seems to be a pretty arrogant vibe about him.

I would generally agree with a speaker that is "good enough" and uses off the shelf drivers.

 

[ROOSKIE]

I would generally agree with a speaker that is "good enough" and uses off the shelf drivers.

Nobody is using anything but off the shelf drivers prior to selling in the many hundreds or even many thousands. Most truly custom run minimums are 1000-2000 or more.
Sure you can tweak a minor aspect of a driver and call that 'custom' but usually that is not meaningful beyond being able to claim some propriety nature exists for marketing.
I have no issue at all with off the shelf drivers as many are absolutely excellent, even SOTA. Others are a great value.
That is part of why they are on the proverbial shelf, they are worth buying as is.

I agree with @kemmler3D that formal training is not absolutely required in speaker design. So many great resources in the evidence based DIY community. It is just a mature atmosphere(@ least if we focus on the cream of the crop in the art) So much has also been published by experienced pros as resources as well.
In terms of hobbyist turned pro just look at Philharmonic audio. Nuff said in terms of what is possible even if rare. As well Ascend purchased a Kipple and grows their catalog with new advanced measurement based designs.

Every one learns as they go whether the training is 'formal' or not. Without formal training Danny could still run GR very nicely and embrace some new thinking if he wanted to. The information is available. Trained or not he, like a great many others, just doesn't want to.

 

[CleanSound]

Nobody is using anything but off the shelf drivers prior to selling in the many hundreds or even many thousands. Most truly custom run minimums are 1000-2000 or more.
Sure you can tweak a minor aspect of a driver and call that 'custom' but usually that is not meaningful beyond being able to claim some propriety nature exists for marketing.
I have no issue at all with off the shelf drivers as many are absolutely excellent, even SOTA. Others are a great value.
That is part of why they are on the proverbial shelf, they are worth buying as is.

I agree. Not only some of the smaller speaker companies uses off the shelf drivers, many times even some of the larger companies do. I also agree that off the shelf speakers are ample good and some are state of the art. However, just keep in mind if you use off the shelf drivers, your speakers design is limited to such, although such limitations wouldn't hold you back in designing a super speaker.

Every one learns as they go whether the training is 'formal' or not. Without formal training Danny could still run GR very nicely and embrace some new thinking if he wanted to. The information is available. Trained or not he, like a great many others, just doesn't want to.

After @kemmler3D great write up, I generally agree that one who is somewhat competent can design a competent speaker if his or her life is dependent on it (although it would be a very classic compression speaker, nothing innovative). When I say formal training, I really meant if one were to make a career out of speaker design and want to strive to put the utmost science and able to perform complex modeling to discover new and innovative design.

I'm willing to bet that there are some speaker companies that started with the designer tinkering and reading every loud speaker design book there is and throughout the years, gained a lot of knowledge through trial and error, experiment and speaking with others who may or may not have formal training. In fact, I'm pretty sure birth from the NRC during Dr. Toole' research there are a new generation of speaker designers who perhaps didn't have formal training in physics, electronics and such.

 

[Hipster Doofus]

hi thanks again for the explanations on what is wrong with products and Why. A big source of Fun and Learning.

What I would enjoy is a video on using the Roon parametric EQ…I have an RTA and I look at your EQ in each review but some basic guidelines, . What matters etc…like one of your other tutorials.

My guess is EQ is like perfume, people tend to over do it.

thank you

 

[beagleman]

There is a thread going on over at audiokarma about the SAME guy....

GR Research is cookin' up some very interesting "old school" 3-way (kit) speakers

12" woofer in a sealed cabinet, -3db in the mid 30's and usable output deep into the 20's with sensitivity in the low 90's and plans to offer servo controlled woofer as an upgrade as well as MTM configuration all in a wide front baffle just like the old school crowd has been asking for. Yeah...

audiokarma.org

It is also wavering back and forth between several saying Snake oil sales man and a few really defending him.
I wonder if he really has "Fans" or just sock puppet accounts...lol

 

[kemmler3D]

Nobody is using anything but off the shelf drivers prior to selling in the many hundreds or even many thousands. Most truly custom run minimums are 1000-2000 or more.

I can confirm this. There are more off-the-shelf drivers out there than most people realize, too. A given factory will often only sell to other factories, you wouldn't see the drivers being sold to consumers. To get something genuinely custom, either you are paying more than retail price (pointless and ruins the cost of your speaker) or you're buying really more like 5K+ units at a time.

The range of what you can get "off the shelf" goes from the cheapest garbage imaginable all the way up to Purifi stuff, which perform beyond all reason. Getting custom drivers isn't really worthwhile unless A) it's a big part of your marketing pitch or B) you are building something so truly TOTL that you need higher performance than is available off the shelf. In which case, you probably need some formal education and design the driver yourself...

Many factories will print your logo on the drivers for a small fee, though...

 

[beagleman]

I can confirm this. There are more off-the-shelf drivers out there than most people realize, too. A given factory will often only sell to other factories, you wouldn't see the drivers being sold to consumers. To get something genuinely custom, either you are paying more than retail price (pointless and ruins the cost of your speaker) or you're buying really more like 5K+ units at a time.

The range of what you can get "off the shelf" goes from the cheapest garbage imaginable all the way up to Purifi stuff, which perform beyond all reason. Getting custom drivers isn't really worthwhile unless A) it's a big part of your marketing pitch or B) you are building something so truly TOTL that you need higher performance than is available off the shelf. In which case, you probably need some formal education and design the driver yourself...

Many factories will print your logo on the drivers for a small fee, though...

I think VIFA alone probably supplied almost 50% of all speakers from the last 25-30 years. Just making up numbers, but maybe not too far off.

 

[kemmler3D]

I think VIFA alone probably supplied almost 50% of all speakers from the last 25-30 years. Just making up numbers, but maybe not too far off.

There are also a lot of "no-name" but reasonable quality drivers that go into all the mass market A/V devices out there. Someone supplies off-the-shelf drivers for TVs, soundbars, bluetooth speakers, etc... not all with names we'd recognize, but virtually all will be "off the shelf". The consumer DIY space for drivers is tiny compared to what simply gets folded into commodity-level audio goods. It's like the market for aftermarket spoilers vs. the entire market for brake rotors.