Total noob - How much SINAD do you actually need?

[nhatlam96]

I need help choosing DAC/Amp, but I am confused with these SINAD charts.

Let's say I would like to enjoy this file here:
FLAC (1059 kb/s, 44.1 kHz, 16 bits, 2 channels).
-> the file is in 16 bit resolution, so SINAD 96-108 dB would be appropriate?
This is the chart:
SINAD

1. █ >120dB (>20 bits): Provably inaudible noise and distortion.
2. █ 109dB—119dB (18 bits—20 bits): Well beyond 16-bit (CD) resolution.
3. █ 96dB—108dB (16 bits—18 bits): Meets and exceeds 16-bit (CD) resolution. <----- 16 bit resolution for my flac file.
4. █ 85dB—95dB (14.3 bits—16 bits): Does not meet 16-bit (CD) resolution.
5. █ <85dB (<14.3 bits): Performance is below the minimum lenient threshold defined in this thread.

For example:
DAC: FX-Audio DAC-X7 (98 dB)
Amp: Cavalli Liquid Carbon X (96 dB)

They both "meet and exceed 16-bit", would that be enough?
What if I pick something under/above the 96-108 db range?
Will it sound audibly worse/better?

 

[Veri]

At least 96dB. Anything more will give you a safe buffer, something like 120dB will be transparent with any and all source files.

A DAC that resolves up to 16-bit will be adequate in a lot of situations, but you will simply lose out on detail and dynamic range in all edge cases.

It also matters if the SINAD is distortion or noise dominated. A DAC full of noise will be a problem for sensitive earphones/speakers. A DAC full of distortion will likely not sound good and has potential to sound 'bright'/piercing...

 

[nhatlam96]

At least 96dB. Anything more will give you a safe buffer, something like 120dB will be transparent with any and all source files.

A DAC that resolves up to 16-bit will be adequate in a lot of situations, but you will simply lose out on detail and dynamic range in all edge cases.

It also matters if the SINAD is distortion or noise dominated. A DAC full of noise will be a problem for sensitive earphones/speakers. A DAC full of distortion will likely not sound good and has potential to sound 'bright'/piercing...

So if I want to have enough "safe buffer", I simply pick something from the SINAD 109-119dB range?
Let's say I choose:
DAC: Topping D50 (109 db)
Amp: Jds Labs O2 Amp (High Gain) (109.4 db)
With that I got everything I need in audible satisfaction?

Edit:
sorry for being so simple minded, I am far from technical and I see it from a consumer point of view.
I don't think I can go search for "SINAD distortion or noise dominated"...

 

[q3cpma]

It's worth mentioning that music material doesn't have such a dynamic range, though. Fortunately so, who would want to alternate between silence and explosed eardrums?

 

[Veri]

So if I want to have enough "safe buffer", I simply pick something from the SINAD 109-119dB range?
Let's say I choose:
DAC: Topping D50 (109 db)
Amp: Jds Labs O2 Amp (High Gain) (109.4 db)
With that I got everything I need in audible satisfaction?

Edit:
sorry for being so simple minded, I am far from technical and I see it from a consumer point of view.
I don't think I can go search for "SINAD distortion or noise dominated"...

Yes that sounds good. Only the O2 has better performing rivals nowadays, there is the $99 Atom, Magni Heresy, liquid spark, ...

 

[solderdude]

With that I got everything I need in audible satisfaction?

I would say you have everything you need to be sure that what your (DT1990 ?) receives has distortion numbers far below that of headphones themselves and can properly drive even 250 Ohm headphones to loud yet not distorted levels.

Whether this means audible satisfaction is a totally different question. To some it will others may well prefer very high levels of (electrical) distortion.

But.. in any case you can be pretty confident the DAC and amp will provide a clean signal. The rest depends on the headphone and your personal taste/preference.

 

[daftcombo]

I need help choosing DAC/Amp, but I am confused with these SINAD charts.

Let's say I would like to enjoy this file here:
FLAC (1059 kb/s, 44.1 kHz, 16 bits, 2 channels).
-> the file is in 16 bit resolution, so SINAD 96-108 dB would be appropriate?
This is the chart:
SINAD

1. █ >120dB (>20 bits): Provably inaudible noise and distortion.
2. █ 109dB—119dB (18 bits—20 bits): Well beyond 16-bit (CD) resolution.
3. █ 96dB—108dB (16 bits—18 bits): Meets and exceeds 16-bit (CD) resolution. <----- 16 bit resolution for my flac file.
4. █ 85dB—95dB (14.3 bits—16 bits): Does not meet 16-bit (CD) resolution.
5. █ <85dB (<14.3 bits): Performance is below the minimum lenient threshold defined in this thread.

For example:
DAC: FX-Audio DAC-X7 (98 dB)
Amp: Cavalli Liquid Carbon X (96 dB)

They both "meet and exceed 16-bit", would that be enough?
What if I pick something under/above the 96-108 db range?
Will it sound audibly worse/better?

Sufficient, but avoid the FX-Audio DAC X7 if you plan to use its USB input: it skips the first second of the first song after being idle.

 

[nhatlam96]

I would say you have everything you need to be sure that what your (DT1990 ?) receives has distortion numbers far below that of headphones themselves and can properly drive even 250 Ohm headphones to loud yet not distorted levels.

Whether this means audible satisfaction is a totally different question. To some it will others may well prefer very high levels of (electrical) distortion.

But.. in any case you can be pretty confident the DAC and amp will provide a clean signal. The rest depends on the headphone and your personal taste/preference.

That's interesting, so the performance of the Topping D50 and Jds O2 Amp exceeds that of the DT1990, which is a good thing.
Btw. thanks for the fast shipment of the filter

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I see that the Sabaj D5 is DAC and Amp at the same time, which is amazing.
Sabaj D5 DAC: 116 dB (rca out) and 119 dB (xlr out)
Sabaj D5 Amp: 107.7 dB

Now let's have a look at the Aune X1S, which is also DAC and Amp at the same time:
Aune X1S DAC: 111 dB
Aune X1S Amp: None, there is no information about that on the spreadsheet.

That's weird, because the Sabaj D5 has SINAD measurement for DAC and Amp, but the Aune X1S not.
Does someone know the SINAD for the Aune X1S Amp?

 

[solderdude]

The amplifier section is also measured, not as extensively though.

Given the output power capabilities I would suggest the X1S over the D5 (as the DT1990 cannot be used balanced)
Both will clip before the DT1990 though so would suggest the D50 + Atom.
Differences in normal usage with sensible (comfortable loud) levels will not be there and all will give the same performance.

So choice could depend on availability, pricing, looks and features/connectivity.

 

[nhatlam96]

Differences in normal usage with sensible (comfortable loud) levels will not be there and all will give the same performance.

So under these circumstances, those options will all have the same performance?

1. X1S​

2. X1S+X7S​

3. X1S+Atom​

4. D50+Atom​

​

In my case (normal usage, comfortable loud levels...), the best choice would be a single Aune X1S for the DT1990?

If yes, I'm going to order it now and live happy forever...
If not, I'm going to order the second option and live happy forever...

Both will clip before the DT1990

What does that mean?

 

[daftcombo]

So under these circumstances, those options will all have the same performance?

1. X1S​

2. X1S+X7S​

3. X1S+Atom​

4. D50+Atom​

​

In my case (normal usage, comfortable loud levels...), the best choice would be a single Aune X1S for the DT1990?

If yes, I'm going to order it now and live happy forever...
If not, I'm going to order the second option and live happy forever...



What does that mean?

It means that you might kill your DT if you push too loud.

 

[nhatlam96]

It means that you might kill your DT if you push too loud.

Just for clarification.
For example:

Aune X1S amp output: 300 Ohm/200mW
DT1990 specs: 250 Ohm; 102 dB/mW; max. SPL 125 dB (200 mW / 500 Hz)
=> calculated headphone loudness: 125.81 dBSPL (coincidentally the same value as the max. SPL of the DT1990).

So if I would accidentally turn the volume knob all the way up, the DT1990 could endure it for a short period of time, is that correct?

(headphone power calculator: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tW4zzgWtIYpLCrMmrmagNpRL7BBX_5-oqNHuacJyhgs/ )

 

[solderdude]

Yes no worries about blowing it up.
Also the 250mW rating is continuous so with music peaks you could well apply at least 1W (not clipping) without any problems.
This means the amplifier will run out of steam before the DT1990 runs out of steam.

 

[bravomail]

My suggestion based on price/performance ratio is - 110dB for DAC/headphone amp, and 96 for poweramp (speakers). Of course you wanna get the highest number, but do you have that much money?

 

[daftcombo]

My suggestion based on price/performance ratio is - 110dB for DAC/headphone amp, and 96 for poweramp (speakers). Of course you wanna get the highest number, but do you have that much money?

It is overkill but if you have the dollars go ahead.
96dB and 80dB respectively is enough audibly speaking IMHO.

 

[BobPM]

If 96 is a good price/ performance point for an amp, then next dollar should be spent on power rather than even lower distortion.

 

[IowAudio]

I was wondering the same thing. I have the SMSL M100 DAC which I think was good for 102db SINAD via optical. I sent my Behringer A800 reference amp in for review and it turned out a 77 SINAD which seems to be a mid-fi result. I was tempted to upgrade to a Emotiva A300 but it has the same SINAD as the tested A500 with a 78db SINAD. These are two very different amps and the A300 may sound better but I'd like to understand more of the SINAD relationship between amp and DAC. If my current DAC is at lease 102db SINAD shouldn't I be looking for an amp close to that? If that's the case I've considered a pile of Schiit, the Modi 3 > Saga S > Vidar.

 

[beefkabob]

I think the correct answer is to start with speakers and move backwards from there. My speakers, 708p, are fantastic, and their internal parts maybe reach 96db SINAD. Real room distortion is much higher.

 

[Veri]

I was wondering the same thing. I have the SMSL M100 DAC which I think was good for 102db SINAD via optical. I sent my Behringer A800 reference amp in for review and it turned out a 77 SINAD which seems to be a mid-fi result. I was tempted to upgrade to a Emotiva A300 but it has the same SINAD as the tested A500 with a 78db SINAD. These are two very different amps and the A300 may sound better but I'd like to understand more of the SINAD relationship between amp and DAC. If my current DAC is at lease 102db SINAD shouldn't I be looking for an amp close to that? If that's the case I've considered a pile of Schiit, the Modi 3 > Saga S > Vidar.

You at least need headroom. 77dB SINAD DAC into 78dB AMP combined will be much lower than the average. 96+dB SINAD DAC into said amp will at least not bottleneck the amp.

 

[solderdude]

It should be noted that SINAD is just a number and not the holy grail. It is a single number that is easy to rank.
There are amps with shitloads of (intentional) distortion that would rank really low yet sound excellent to a lot of people.

SINAD only says something about distortion levels at 1kHz + noise and those are not the most important aspects of an amplifier tested with a resistive load under certain level conditions.

 

[Piotr]

So what are the most important aspects @solderdude? Because for me: THD+N, SNR and Crosstalk (and the power output, but that's obvious)