I’m not sure how any of this is relevant to the question at hand?
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Torn between AVR room correction and Hi-Fi sound quality.
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frabor
Active Member
You state that Sinad is not relevant, and over 100 Probably not , but in the area where most Avr are, sinad makes a difference. In as much as room correction is awesome, the sound quality of some avr is not as good as it should be.
And your proof is what? And why would SINAD be the critical factor in that? I'm also not sure what any of this has to do with vinyl?
Hi
All anecdotes..probably repetitions.
Long time no post, I am well , have been very (good) busy.
As an EE, understand the notion of SINAD, put it aside .. I am in IT so ,, yeah, it surfaces once in a while.
then came ASR and SINAD became an important metric , one by which upstarts, cheap and lean were slaughtering the HEA darlings (Topping!! SMSL!!!) and it came to be the King metrics in our minds.. If SINAD is high, then Audio performance was high (true) .. but.. How high ? and can we hear the differences everything else being the same? .. At what level does it really matter?
Then we learned that the cherished vinyl, and the even more celebrated R2R .. can barely do 70 dB, and in the case of Vinyl chains, 50 dB, is where their measured SINAD lands .. many are 45 dB or less ... regardless of price .... (Just saying , meanwhile the $25 CD transport available at Walmart could well be doing 80 dB all day long with flat 0 dB variation 20 to 20 KHz .. in passing , yes, in passing)
Seems based on various studies, that we cannot distinguish reliably 80 dB from 90 or 100 or 120 .. 80DB seems to be the brickwall for most people.. Someone coudl prove me wrong but 100dB is not the brickwall threshold ...
And most AVR do 85 Db routinely..
We also know that calculating the SINAD of a chain of component is complicated, complex (it involves complex numbers
and Euler number and ...) but let it be known the SINAD is low-bound by the lowest SINAD in the chain ... so 100 dB SINAD amp, with a 25 dB SINAD preamp gives you <25 DB SINAD chain ...
OK
But remember our sisters and brothers from the other side? Those with Vinyl and expensive TT and Tubes preamp and RIAA correction and .. expensive cables.? . They are well under 50 dB, yet purport that it sounds sooo good, that even their spouse in another zip code could hear the difference ...
The elephant in the ROOM.. is the ROOM itself .. it mangles whatever comes from the loudspeakers and soils it, brings it down, especially in the bass where 30 dB swings are commonplace ... Then, one realizes that what makes things sound good is not SINAD , that most decent components clear the 70 dB threshold (most AVRs) , and that what you hear, is through the room , from the room and the loudspeakers interactions . DRC can mitigate the room's impact, its reach and MANY AVRs come with it built-in ... no extra price and with more than 2 amplifers
So many AVR come with ROom Correction and to me it is one of the greatest gift from these AVR...unsung heroes of excellence in Audio Reproduction.
An AVR costing $1200 is a superior DRC -machine, if you know how to use that capability and while most people will struggle, to hear the differences between 75 dB and 80 DB of SINAD.. with or without is really DRC, invariably NIGHT and day... even your spouse from the kitchen .... will hear it ..
And if well implemented .. DRC is transformative. I currently am using OCA scripts and these are game-changers.. with Denon or Marantz AVR , things are transformed from good to superlative.
WHich brings me to my current state of things : For, almost 10 years I've had the same system (!!
..) A cheap Denon AVR-X3400 { purchased refurbished at Accessories4ess.com + a pair of JBL LSR-308 (circa $400 pair) + a pair of Dayton SUB1500 about $250 each + OCA scripts and it has been the best system I have had in my 50 + years of being an audiophile .. it is full range 20 to 20,000, can reach 110 dB at the listening position (both measured ) ,and is a constant (daily) source of joy and yes, of elation ...All that for less than $2500...
AVR should be the center of ANY audio system .. PERIOD..
All anecdotes..probably repetitions.
Long time no post, I am well , have been very (good) busy.
As an EE, understand the notion of SINAD, put it aside .. I am in IT so ,, yeah, it surfaces once in a while.
then came ASR and SINAD became an important metric , one by which upstarts, cheap and lean were slaughtering the HEA darlings (Topping!! SMSL!!!) and it came to be the King metrics in our minds.. If SINAD is high, then Audio performance was high (true) .. but.. How high ? and can we hear the differences everything else being the same? .. At what level does it really matter?
Then we learned that the cherished vinyl, and the even more celebrated R2R .. can barely do 70 dB, and in the case of Vinyl chains, 50 dB, is where their measured SINAD lands .. many are 45 dB or less ... regardless of price .... (Just saying , meanwhile the $25 CD transport available at Walmart could well be doing 80 dB all day long with flat 0 dB variation 20 to 20 KHz .. in passing , yes, in passing)
Seems based on various studies, that we cannot distinguish reliably 80 dB from 90 or 100 or 120 .. 80DB seems to be the brickwall for most people.. Someone coudl prove me wrong but 100dB is not the brickwall threshold ...
And most AVR do 85 Db routinely..
We also know that calculating the SINAD of a chain of component is complicated, complex (it involves complex numbers
and Euler number and ...) but let it be known the SINAD is low-bound by the lowest SINAD in the chain ... so 100 dB SINAD amp, with a 25 dB SINAD preamp gives you <25 DB SINAD chain ...OK
But remember our sisters and brothers from the other side? Those with Vinyl and expensive TT and Tubes preamp and RIAA correction and .. expensive cables.? . They are well under 50 dB, yet purport that it sounds sooo good, that even their spouse in another zip code could hear the difference ...
The elephant in the ROOM.. is the ROOM itself .. it mangles whatever comes from the loudspeakers and soils it, brings it down, especially in the bass where 30 dB swings are commonplace ... Then, one realizes that what makes things sound good is not SINAD , that most decent components clear the 70 dB threshold (most AVRs) , and that what you hear, is through the room , from the room and the loudspeakers interactions . DRC can mitigate the room's impact, its reach and MANY AVRs come with it built-in ... no extra price and with more than 2 amplifers
So many AVR come with ROom Correction and to me it is one of the greatest gift from these AVR...unsung heroes of excellence in Audio Reproduction.
An AVR costing $1200 is a superior DRC -machine, if you know how to use that capability and while most people will struggle, to hear the differences between 75 dB and 80 DB of SINAD.. with or without is really DRC, invariably NIGHT and day... even your spouse from the kitchen .... will hear it ..
And if well implemented .. DRC is transformative. I currently am using OCA scripts and these are game-changers.. with Denon or Marantz AVR , things are transformed from good to superlative.
WHich brings me to my current state of things : For, almost 10 years I've had the same system (!!
..) A cheap Denon AVR-X3400 { purchased refurbished at Accessories4ess.com + a pair of JBL LSR-308 (circa $400 pair) + a pair of Dayton SUB1500 about $250 each + OCA scripts and it has been the best system I have had in my 50 + years of being an audiophile .. it is full range 20 to 20,000, can reach 110 dB at the listening position (both measured ) ,and is a constant (daily) source of joy and yes, of elation ...All that for less than $2500...AVR should be the center of ANY audio system .. PERIOD..
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Ultrasonic
Major Contributor
This may be more expensive than you're prepared to spend but note that the new miniDSP Tide16 offers both DLBC and ART functionality.
Personally I don't see DLBC as necessary as it's perfectly possible to integrate a subwoofer well without, just not in a fully automated way.
What if you had 17 speakers to align?
Not really sure where the SINAD tolerance numbers come from.Hi
All anecdotes..probably repetitions.
Long time no post, I am well , have been very (good) busy.
As an EE, understand the notion of SINAD, o put it aside .. I am In IT so ,, yeah it surfaces once in a while.
then came ASR and SINAD became an important metric , one by which upstarts, cheap and lean were slaughtering the HEA darlings (Topping!! SMSL!!!) and it came to be the King metrics in our minds.. If SINAD is high, then Audio performance was high (true) .. but.. How high ? and can we hear the differences everything else being the same? .. At what level does it really matter?
Then we learned that the cherished vinyl, and the even more celebrated R2R .. can barely do 70 dB, and in the case of Vinyl chains, 50 dB, is where their measured SINAD lands .. many are 45 dB or less ... regardless of price .... (Just saying , meanwhile the $25 CD transport available at Walmart could well be doing 80 dB all day long with flat o Db variation 20 to 20 KHz .. in passing , yes, in passing)
Seems based on various study that we cannot distinguish reliably 80 dB from 90 or 100 or 120 .. 80DB seems to be the brickwall for most people.. Someone coudl prove me wrong but 100dB is not the brickwall threshold ...
And most AVR do 85 Db routinely..
We also know that calculating the SINAD of a chain of component is complicated, complex (it involves complex numbers
OK
But remember our sisters and brothers from the other side , those with Vinyl and expensive TT and Tubes preamp and RIAA correction and .. expensive cables.. They are well under 50 dB, yet purport that it sounds soo good, that even their spouse in another zip code could hear the difference ...
The elephant in the ROOM.. is the ROOM itself .. it mangles whatever comes from the loudspeakers and soils it, brings it down, especially in the bass where 30 dB swings are commonplace ... Then, one realizes that what makes things sound good is not SINAD , that most decent components clear the 70 dB threshold (most AVRs) , and that what you hear, is through the room , from the room and the loudspeakers interactions . DRC can mitigate the room's impact, its reach and MANY AVRs come with it built-in ... no extra price and with more than 2 amplifers
So many AVR come with ROom Correction and to me it is one of the greatest gift from these AVR...unsung heroes of excellence in Audio Reproduction.
An AVR costing $1200 is a superior DRC -machine, if you know how to use that capability and while most people will struggle, to hear the differences between 75 dB and 80 DB of SINAD.. with or without is really DRC, invariably NIGHT and day... even your spouse from the kitchen .... will hear it ..
And if well implemented .. DRC is transformative. I currently am using OCA scripts and these are game-changers.. with Denon or Marantz AVR , things are transformed from good to superlative.
WHich brings me to my current state of things : For, almost 10 years I've had the same system (!!
AVR should be the center of ANY audio system .. PERIOD..
Statistically relevant sample is here:
Listening Test
It is obviously a test where lots of people would have objections as to methodology and such, but the sample is really significant.
People should take it so they realize where they are in the great scheme of things.
Ultrasonic
Major Contributor
Do we lnow the OP has 17 speakers?
Not sure - but I do.
Flex HTx with no DLBC, no MSO, no room correction. No sub crawl; open concept living room so just plopped the subs where they look best. Just delay, LPF/HPF, minimal EQ, and two all pass filters.
Left sub HSU VTF-15H MK1
Right sub HSU VTF-15H Mk2
Both Subs
Fully manual sub integration; the only frequency I get cancellation is at 20hz.
| Frequency | Best Single Sub | Both Subs | Summation Gain |
|---|---|---|---|
| 20 Hz | 68.7 dB | 64.2 dB | -4.5 dB |
| 30 Hz | 74.2 dB | 83.8 dB | +9.6 dB |
| 40 Hz | 75.2 dB | 81.2 dB | +6.0 dB |
| 50 Hz | 75.0 dB | 79.2 dB | +4.2 dB |
| 60 Hz | 68.4 dB | 77.5 dB | +9.1 dB |
| 70 Hz | 71.3 dB | 76.7 dB | +5.4 dB |
| 80 Hz | 61.8 dB | 73.4 dB | +11.6 dB |
| 90 Hz | 61.3 dB | 65.4 dB | +4.1 dB |
Don't wish to go off-topic here but just a quick piece of info for @frabor and others of interest. SINAD measurements don't really enter into the equation here.
You almost never get the same "mix" from vinyl and digital sources. Digital recordings are capable of creating a exact copy of the final master, but vinyl has to be specially treated to create a master that 1: the cutting lathe can handle and 2: the average table and needle can track due to physical limitations of a vinyl record and more.
Here's a couple links for further info.
Mastering For Vinyl Records | Gotta Groove Records Gotta Groove Records
Tips for vinyl mastering - preparing digital masters for vinyl pressing.
www.gottagrooverecords.com
What is Mastering for Vinyl?
Mastering for vinyl is the process of creating a separate master that can be cut into a vinyl record without added unwanted distortion.
www.sageaudio.com
I will go against the consensus and say that if you only have a 2 channel setup or 2 channel with subs, you don't need an AVR and you don't need the super-duper-version of Dirac, actually you can do very well with completely manual EQ. Any Dirac version present in a MiniDSP product will certainly be enough.
I run manual EQ and below 150hz only, and I couldn't be happier. Which means I can also have high SINAD gear, if I so please.
I run manual EQ and below 150hz only, and I couldn't be happier. Which means I can also have high SINAD gear, if I so please.
Hi
All anecdotes..probably repetitions.
Long time no post, I am well , have been very (good) busy.
As an EE, understand the notion of SINAD, put it aside .. I am in IT so ,, yeah, it surfaces once in a while.
then came ASR and SINAD became an important metric , one by which upstarts, cheap and lean were slaughtering the HEA darlings (Topping!! SMSL!!!) and it came to be the King metrics in our minds.. If SINAD is high, then Audio performance was high (true) .. but.. How high ? and can we hear the differences everything else being the same? .. At what level does it really matter?
Then we learned that the cherished vinyl, and the even more celebrated R2R .. can barely do 70 dB, and in the case of Vinyl chains, 50 dB, is where their measured SINAD lands .. many are 45 dB or less ... regardless of price .... (Just saying , meanwhile the $25 CD transport available at Walmart could well be doing 80 dB all day long with flat 0 dB variation 20 to 20 KHz .. in passing , yes, in passing)
Seems based on various studies, that we cannot distinguish reliably 80 dB from 90 or 100 or 120 .. 80DB seems to be the brickwall for most people.. Someone coudl prove me wrong but 100dB is not the brickwall threshold ...
And most AVR do 85 Db routinely..
We also know that calculating the SINAD of a chain of component is complicated, complex (it involves complex numbers
OK
But remember our sisters and brothers from the other side? Those with Vinyl and expensive TT and Tubes preamp and RIAA correction and .. expensive cables.? . They are well under 50 dB, yet purport that it sounds sooo good, that even their spouse in another zip code could hear the difference ...
The elephant in the ROOM.. is the ROOM itself .. it mangles whatever comes from the loudspeakers and soils it, brings it down, especially in the bass where 30 dB swings are commonplace ... Then, one realizes that what makes things sound good is not SINAD , that most decent components clear the 70 dB threshold (most AVRs) , and that what you hear, is through the room , from the room and the loudspeakers interactions . DRC can mitigate the room's impact, its reach and MANY AVRs come with it built-in ... no extra price and with more than 2 amplifers
So many AVR come with ROom Correction and to me it is one of the greatest gift from these AVR...unsung heroes of excellence in Audio Reproduction.
An AVR costing $1200 is a superior DRC -machine, if you know how to use that capability and while most people will struggle, to hear the differences between 75 dB and 80 DB of SINAD.. with or without is really DRC, invariably NIGHT and day... even your spouse from the kitchen .... will hear it ..
And if well implemented .. DRC is transformative. I currently am using OCA scripts and these are game-changers.. with Denon or Marantz AVR , things are transformed from good to superlative.
WHich brings me to my current state of things : For, almost 10 years I've had the same system (!!
AVR should be the center of ANY audio system .. PERIOD..
The AVR-X3400H sounded transparent to me when I had it for a couple weeks. Its signal chain is near identical to the X3500h through X6500H and the X3500H measured >95 dB SINAD on ASR, if you don't push pre out above around 1.2 V (Amir's comments) and use it with a power amp that can also do >95 dB SINAD.
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I am just repeating, SINAD 80 dB is likely as good as 120 dB, as long as it is not 80 dB at a single point If 80 or even 75 dB is the worst point on a curve, or several curves under the worst measured conditions, then I won't worry about it.
Regardless, higher is better so yes I wouldn't mind paying extra (to a point), for higher SINAD even if it makes no audible differences, same with FR, 20-15 kHz or 15-25 kHz will likely make no difference to me, but I wouldn't mind paying extra fore 15-25 kHz, that just me, stupidity, or craziness, haha..
Regardless, higher is better so yes I wouldn't mind paying extra (to a point), for higher SINAD even if it makes no audible differences, same with FR, 20-15 kHz or 15-25 kHz will likely make no difference to me, but I wouldn't mind paying extra fore 15-25 kHz, that just me, stupidity, or craziness, haha..
welwynnick
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I agree with all of that, and I don't feel the need to justify any of it, either. However I'm going to give it a go.
It's occurred to me that there's too much emphasis on best case measurements at 1V / 1W / 1% / 1o / 1dB / 1kΩ / 1kHz .
When we listen to music we're not just listening to best case reproduction, we're listening to everything, loud and quiet, high and low.... etc.
My view is that we do want high SINAD, but we want it across the whole audio envelope that our equipment works in.
That would be the full frequency range, the full dynamic range, and whatever load impedance the device has to drive.
I don't think it's good enough to get a good SINAD result at just the single point in the centre of that envelope.
I surveyed 40 amplifier tests where I could find good measurements beyond 1W / 1kHz etc. After a great deal of trial and error, I compiled best and worst case results.
The worst case envelope is 100Hz to 10kHz in frequency, 0.5% to 50% of rated power, and four to eight ohms load (for power amps).
I thought the difference between best and worst case should ideally be as small as possible. For some Topping, Benchmark and McIntosh amplifiers, the difference was small, around 5dB. For some older, low cost, high power class D amps, the difference was large, over 20dB. Good amps seemed to keep the variation roughly around 10dB.
It was interesting to compile these figures and compare them with what I thought of the amplifiers I've heard myself. There's quite a gulf between good and bad.
If an amp can maintain SINAD above 80dB over the whole of the intentionally modest audio envelope that I described above, then it's really doing very well indeed.
To pluck a name out, the NAD 2200 is a slightly surprising example of something that passes that particular test.
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For me, Audyssey + dynamic eq outweigh all other considerations. (Within reason, for this price/performance range, in this product class, etc.) It's my understanding that dirac doesn't have the dynamic eq feature?
That is true, an unfortunate missing feature.
Many are asking/hoping, (including me) for some form of Equal Loudness Contour curves be added to Dirac.
It's spelled 'vinyl', and the mastering (not mix) will be different on it versus the digital version(s). To compare meaningfully you'd also have to make sure the perceived loudness is the same or close for both.
SINAD and DACs and AVRs have nothing to do with either of those, but they make virtually all the difference you'll hear.
