The FTC mandates these companies report 20Hz-20kHz at 1% THD into 2CH, which is a SINAD of 40. I'm generally ok w/half that number or better (0.05% THD+N = 66 SINAD) into 2 channels as a useful number for peak power.
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Torn between AVR room correction and Hi-Fi sound quality.
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DavidMcRoy
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Here is my purist approach:
AVR "Pure Direct" Front Left/Front Right > Passive Stereo Selector Input > miniDSP > External Power Amplifier > Speakers
Other 2-channel Stereo Sources > Other Inputs on Passive Stereo Selector
This allows you to bypass the AVR processing for front left and right to the extent that it allows you to for video sources, and completely for front left and right channels from non-video sources.
To accommodate subwoofers, instruct the AVR that you have "No" Subwoofers (if applicable) and split the full-range passive stereo selector outputs to the sub(s) and to the external speaker miniDSPs. Set the miniDSPs' high pass filters, delays, levels and polarities to blend the mains with the subs.
Note that this configuration relies on full range audio to the front left and right, so that you are doing your own bass management for those channels, Set front speakers in the AVR as "Large" and all others as "Small." The AVR should still perform bass management for all other channels, sending center, surround and height channel bass to the front left and right outputs at frequencies below the frequency selected in the AVR, which in turn will be accommodated by the crossovers in the miniDSP units for the mains and the subs.
In the AVR's own delay settings, set delays for front left and right to minimum, and adjust delays for Center, Surrounds and Heights to accommodate the total delay introduced by the miniDSPs, which are in turn internally adjustable for the mains vs. the subs. (You will have to do acoustic measurements with a test mic for this, as the miniDSPs will add their own inherent delays to what is selected in their settings, and the subwoofer physical distance and internal delays must be accounted for.)
My approach basically treats all surround processing in the AVR as a sort of "sidechain" event apart from a straightforward 2-channel stereo system, as much as the AVR will allow. The downside is the added complexity of setup, including the loss of automatic room correction that the AVR could otherwise provide, unless you upgrade your mniDSPs to Dirac Live. Otherwise this requires manual external DSP setup for all channels, ideally, which is what I have done, simply because I "can't get no satisfaction" from what Dirac Live tries to do. I've tried it.
No one said this would be easy, and you have to ask yourself whether it's all worth it. Admittedly, for most it won't be.
AVR "Pure Direct" Front Left/Front Right > Passive Stereo Selector Input > miniDSP > External Power Amplifier > Speakers
Other 2-channel Stereo Sources > Other Inputs on Passive Stereo Selector
This allows you to bypass the AVR processing for front left and right to the extent that it allows you to for video sources, and completely for front left and right channels from non-video sources.
To accommodate subwoofers, instruct the AVR that you have "No" Subwoofers (if applicable) and split the full-range passive stereo selector outputs to the sub(s) and to the external speaker miniDSPs. Set the miniDSPs' high pass filters, delays, levels and polarities to blend the mains with the subs.
Note that this configuration relies on full range audio to the front left and right, so that you are doing your own bass management for those channels, Set front speakers in the AVR as "Large" and all others as "Small." The AVR should still perform bass management for all other channels, sending center, surround and height channel bass to the front left and right outputs at frequencies below the frequency selected in the AVR, which in turn will be accommodated by the crossovers in the miniDSP units for the mains and the subs.
In the AVR's own delay settings, set delays for front left and right to minimum, and adjust delays for Center, Surrounds and Heights to accommodate the total delay introduced by the miniDSPs, which are in turn internally adjustable for the mains vs. the subs. (You will have to do acoustic measurements with a test mic for this, as the miniDSPs will add their own inherent delays to what is selected in their settings, and the subwoofer physical distance and internal delays must be accounted for.)
My approach basically treats all surround processing in the AVR as a sort of "sidechain" event apart from a straightforward 2-channel stereo system, as much as the AVR will allow. The downside is the added complexity of setup, including the loss of automatic room correction that the AVR could otherwise provide, unless you upgrade your mniDSPs to Dirac Live. Otherwise this requires manual external DSP setup for all channels, ideally, which is what I have done, simply because I "can't get no satisfaction" from what Dirac Live tries to do. I've tried it.
No one said this would be easy, and you have to ask yourself whether it's all worth it. Admittedly, for most it won't be.
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Agree with the many that noted SINAD chasing will have lesser (if any) impact on performance compared to e.g. Dirac full suite.
It is still possible to get AVPs or AVRs with high SINAD, but they will be pricier. Example of AVR would be Denon A1H and then AVPs like Marantz AV10/20 with 107 or 109 dB SINAD. Newly launched Mini DSP Tide apparently has 118dB SINAD and can be considered AVP. These are all numbers in stereo mode. Unfortunately this is not tested with full Dirac pack engaged.
It is still possible to get AVPs or AVRs with high SINAD, but they will be pricier. Example of AVR would be Denon A1H and then AVPs like Marantz AV10/20 with 107 or 109 dB SINAD. Newly launched Mini DSP Tide apparently has 118dB SINAD and can be considered AVP. These are all numbers in stereo mode. Unfortunately this is not tested with full Dirac pack engaged.
Any room correction will somewhat affect to signal level, aka lower it, which of course lowers SINAD as well.
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Keith_W
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Agree with the others that you do not need to concern yourself with sound quality if you choose an AVR.
But the reason I haven't gone with an AVR is because they have a tendency to (1) have poor long term reliability, and (2) go obsolete very quickly. All it will take is a few generations and you might find that the software world has moved on, and your AVR can't run the latest and greatest. If the damned thing is still working, that is. Maybe it's just my rotten luck that all my AVR's died or went flaky within 5-6 years of purchase, but I am not willing to drop so much money on a single piece of equipment any more. If I need an AVR, I would buy an AV preamp and separate power amps. At least, when the AV preamp dies or goes obsolete, i'll still be able to use the power amp.
It's a horrible feeling throwing a piece of equipment you paid $3000 for into the landfill.
But the reason I haven't gone with an AVR is because they have a tendency to (1) have poor long term reliability, and (2) go obsolete very quickly. All it will take is a few generations and you might find that the software world has moved on, and your AVR can't run the latest and greatest. If the damned thing is still working, that is. Maybe it's just my rotten luck that all my AVR's died or went flaky within 5-6 years of purchase, but I am not willing to drop so much money on a single piece of equipment any more. If I need an AVR, I would buy an AV preamp and separate power amps. At least, when the AV preamp dies or goes obsolete, i'll still be able to use the power amp.
It's a horrible feeling throwing a piece of equipment you paid $3000 for into the landfill.
Bleib
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Yes, but the room can a major source for distorsion as well.
My POV on the subject:
You should be able to do both with the AVR. Store two settings, one with room correction and one completely without
Well, they are a bit like computers on that part. However for instance now the new Denon 2900, 3900 and above updates don't seem to be needed, seems we're quite stuck at 4k/120hz and no new important sound formats seem to replace atmos etc.
The trick is to sell in time, and use the money to buy the new..
That 5-6 year life could apply to the AV preamp as well (more costly than the AVR to boot)!
Agreed that a good amp can be used for quite a long time (except maybe for certain brands which shall not be named).
Keith_W
Master Contributor
Yeah, unfortunately AV is a game where the only way to win is not to play. After my AVR died, I stopped watching TV. Not that I watched it much anyway. And after a few years, when I wanted to turn the TV on, I found that the batteries had leaked in the remote. So the TV was almost useless too. I removed the TV and now it's in storage. I have no working TV at home, and I don't really miss it that much.
The situation might be different for movie lovers or people with families.
The speakers are the weakest link in the chain if you're worried about distortion, etc. And usually the room makes things still worse.
Nothing wrong with chasing low distortion in AVRs, amps, dacs, etc, but just be aware that those differences are generally tiny in comparison to what your speakers and room are doing to the sound.
Nothing wrong with chasing low distortion in AVRs, amps, dacs, etc, but just be aware that those differences are generally tiny in comparison to what your speakers and room are doing to the sound.
I really like this idea. I don't care for the miniDSP in the path though. Although I love my miniDSP, I only use it for the subs. If I'm trying to be a purist, I'd like to avoid the miniDSP's ADC/DAC path. Although I know I most likely can not hear any detrimental effects that it might have, if I'm going to use my AVR's "Pure Direct" path, I'd like to maintain that philosophy.
You've given me an idea though. I do have one of these babies in the closet gathering dust. Outlaw Audio ICBM-1. It has a high-pass filter for the mains and routes those frequencies that got filtered to the subwoofer. Selectable crossover frequency. In other words, analog bass management.
Outlaw Audio ICBM-1
I like this approach. My setup is somewhat similar.
I run the AVR with the bed channels effectively full range into a miniDSP Flex HTx, with the AVR set to no subwoofer. The Flex then handles the actual bass management for the bed layer and subs: crossover overlap, sub delays, polarity, levels, PEQ, and routing.
The AVR still handles decoding and bass management for the Atmos channels, and I adjust AVR distances to account for the latency introduced by the Flex HTx path. So the AVR is mainly doing decoding/surround duties, while the miniDSP handles the main L/R + dual-sub integration.
No room correction / untreated room. It’s obviously not as clean as Dirac ART, but it is still a satisfactory result. This setup also gives me the option to use the Flex HTx DAC stage directly for stereo sources, although subjectively I don’t think it makes a meaningful difference versus playing the same source through the Denon first.
The first image is the spectrogram at the MLP. The second is a multi-seat averaged spectrogram. So even with manual calibration you can still pay attention to seat-to-seat consistency rather than optimizing only a single point.
The first image is the spectrogram at the MLP. The second is a multi-seat averaged spectrogram. So even with manual calibration you can still pay attention to seat-to-seat consistency rather than optimizing only a single point.
I assuage my guilt by throwing broken equipment into the recycle bin so that the recyclers can throw it into the landfill.
Sigh. Thanks for reminding of that awful day when I finally took my 9" CRT projector to the city dump.
Could be just the ever eroding quality of everything. I mean, they literally do not make 'em like they used to.
I had an Onkyo TX-SR805 for 20 years. Fact is, I killed it (mistakes were made, I dont want to go into it) otherwise I would still be using it! Fortunately we have solid options locally for electronics recycling so I felt less horrible about dropping it off and more so about it being my fault. lol
Up until the, umm, incident it was still working perfectly, even though it was still "just" a 7.1 Dolby TrueHD/DTS HD unit and at 50lb (most of which was the transformer) it had NO problem driving a suite of low impedance speakers to theatre levels.
Even adjusting for inflation, I spent more on the Denon 3800 to replace it and in some ways now have less, at least on the amplifier side of things (the 4800 would have been closer to the old Onkyo but it was almost 2x the price, at least in my area)... yet I have to admit that going from the Audyssey MultiEQ XT to XT32 (specifically going from 16x to 512x filter resolution for satellites) has made all the difference with my surrounds. Their placement is far from ideal and accoustically a mess, but they actually sound half decent now.
But I digress...
I have a stack of 10-20 year old AVRs. Most of them decomissioned when 4k HDR became mainstream. Never had an AVR die on me, not even partially defect.
The software moves on fast. I agree to see them more like in 5-6 years cycles. It's best to sell them in time. Prices can go as low as 10% when something substantial has changed. I thought 8k mainstream TV / 4k120 would be such a thing, but got the impression AVRs support it well before these displays take fully over.
The software moves on fast. I agree to see them more like in 5-6 years cycles. It's best to sell them in time. Prices can go as low as 10% when something substantial has changed. I thought 8k mainstream TV / 4k120 would be such a thing, but got the impression AVRs support it well before these displays take fully over.
The exact thing happened to me twice with supposedly high quality and expensive AVR's. A couple of years out of warranty and no replacements parts or boards available.
This drove me to vintage and DIY which was a blessing in a way as I learned a lot from the experience. I have ventured back into buying some new gear but don't think I will ever buy another AVR.
frabor
Active Member
I do not have golden ears, but most of the times, with the same mix and using a machine cleaned vynil, the dac stream copy has a " nicer" sounds. My amp is probably a -85dB ( aiyima a05 with TPA3251), with sinad closer vynil resolution.
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