Torn between Audiophile and Reality of Measurements

[Xenon240]

Hi, newbie here to ASR, but a long time Audiophile (?) going back to the 80’s. My background is electronics so I have an idea of engineering/design/component cost of equipment. I’ve read here different definitions of what an Audiophile is. I would say I love listening to any type of music on a system that can replicate as close as possible to the concert hall environment.

What is important to me is the longevity of equipment and specs, with listening as the final step. Hence I landed onto ASR site.

My question is, there are manufacturers that build bullet proof amplifier equipment (albeit at exorbitant prices), but why do we not see any Measurement tests of this equipment?

 

[staticV3]

You mean on ASR? Because neither the MFRs, nor ASR's readers are willing to send that equipment in for Amir to test.
Or do you mean why are no measurements available for this kind of equipment in general?

 

[AdamG]

Hi, newbie here to ASR, but a long time Audiophile (?) going back to the 80’s. My background is electronics so I have an idea of engineering/design/component cost of equipment. I’ve read here different definitions of what an Audiophile is. I would say I love listening to any type of music on a system that can replicate as close as possible to the concert hall environment.

What is important to me is the longevity of equipment and specs, with listening as the final step. Hence I landed onto ASR site.

My question is, there are manufacturers that build bullet proof amplifier equipment (albeit at exorbitant prices), but why do we not see any Measurement tests of this equipment?

We operate on a different basis as most Review Sites. There are no Sponsors or Advertising. Therefore no income to purchase these incredibly expensive items. We work off of Membership donations and the generosity of our Host Amir @amirm.

Members send Amir their gear for testing purposes. Or they may purchase an item new and have it drop shipped directly to Amir for testing and then Amir ships it to the Member. On occasion a very limited number of Vendors will send Amir gear to test. But their are no agreements with them and the test results may be brutal. Not a lot of Audio gear manufacturers want to expose their equipment to a real and true unbiased brutal review that Amir is notorious for accomplishing. If you want some expensive kit reviewed you buy it and send to Amir.

Edit: Audiophile = Music Lover. Don’t over analyze it.

 

[TurtlePaul]

Do you have a Rotel or Bryston or Adcom or Classe or McIntosh? Would you be willing to send it to Amir for review?

The issue is that there are brands that are known to test objectively well at certain prices. Most people here on ASR are looking for objectively well testing equipment. While not presented as clearly as here on ASR, Sterophile has measured a lot of these high-end brands. They tend to not to measure better (usually somewhere between a little and meaningfully worse, but inaudibly so) than the Benchmark AHB2 or Hypex/Purifi based amps. Therefore, it is hard to find people on here spending $5000+ on amplification and willing to submit to Amir for review.

 

[Vini darko]

I'm sure Amir is itching to break his back lifting 50kg amplifiers.

 

[Xenon240]

Ok I understand now. Yes it would be difficult and costly to send in a 100lb amplifier for Amir to test. I was just curious to see how a $10,000 amplifier stacks up against say an Emovita or Parasound amp.

 

[kongwee]

I have electrical diploma, not problem for me to enjoy 300B, full range horn speaker and LP. I have enjoyed high end super good measurement state of the art system too. Even people ask for concert hall performance like system, they have different perceptive about the sound. They want a system standing in the conductor stage or sitting that the best seat of concert hall. Likewise, you have wanna be in the rock concert stage or at the VIP area.

 

[JSmith]

I was just curious to see how a $10,000 amplifier stacks up against say an Emovita or Parasound amp.

Why though, since price is no indicator of performance?

JSmith

 

[Galliardist]

I have electrical diploma, not problem for me to enjoy 300B, full range horn speaker and LP. I have enjoyed high end super good measurement state of the art system too. Even people ask for concert hall performance like system, they have different perceptive about the sound. They want a system standing in the conductor stage or sitting that the best seat of concert hall. Likewise, you have wanna be in the rock concert stage or at the VIP area.

Ask to recreate a "live experience", especially a specific one, you are doomed to failure.

I agree with you about what you will have "enjoyed". For me the aims of a high fidelity system are a bit more than "enjoyed". I spent my childhood enjoying music on a 1960s TV and various cheap transistor radios, and can still enjoy a nice tune on a supermarket PA system.

I guess it's about being able to hear much more of what the musicians are doing than on those low fidelity systems. A lot of time, skill and hard work goes into what is in the recording and I want to best appreciate that. So I'd enjoy your 300B system but I probably won't buy my own because I don't maximise that appreciation with it.

 

[kongwee]

The issue is that there are brands that are known to test objectively well at certain prices. Most people here on ASR are looking for objectively well testing equipment. While not presented as clearly as here on ASR, Sterophile has measured a lot of these high-end brands. They tend to not to measure better (usually somewhere between a little and meaningfully worse, but inaudibly so) than the Benchmark AHB2 or Hypex/Purifi based amps. Therefore, it is hard to find people on here spending $5000+ on amplification and willing to submit to Amir for review.

John Atkinson at Stereophile rate Benchmark AHB2 very well, you can even see the Voltage time domain drawing the square wave like all the reference amplifiers or top end all these years. He is only one that measure as far as I know.

 

[TurtlePaul]

In addition to these amps costing several times as much as 'perfect' measuring amps, the high priced amps also face another objective problem:

If even the best speakers have 'SINAD' performance of at most 50-60 dB in the crucial 500 Hz to 5 Khz midrange (e.g., 0.1%-0.3% speaker THD), then how could an amp ever be worth more than $2,000? Assuming of course that ~100-200 watts is more than needed for domestic environments. Clearly spending megabucks would be best used to pursue better speakers. In the speaker reviews, we don't even get worked up for distortion below 1% so why chase it in amps (other than to show good engineering)?

With all of the amps out there that are able to achieve 85-90 dB or above SINADs (or even 100+ dB) with less than 0.2 ohm output impedance, what could an amp possibly deliver that could make it worth 2x or 3x or 10x as much? At some point you have to admit that the the most expensive amps are furniture pieces to decorate the listening room or are elaborate Rube Goldberg-esque tone controls and effects filters.

edit: I mean, I will probably buy a nice amp in the future, but as some point, you have to come to the conclusion that amps measure so much better than speakers that most Denons and Yamahas measure transparently below 50 watts. Look at the famous Carver challenge.

 

[f1shb0n3]

With all of the amps out there that are able to achieve 85-90 dB or above SINADs (or even 100+ dB) with less than 0.2 ohm output impedance, what could an amp possibly deliver that could make it worth 2x or 3x or 10x as much? At some point you have to admit that the the most expensive amps are furniture pieces to decorate the listening room or are elaborate Rube Goldberg-esque tone controls and effects filters.

Brand name, build quality, features, power - all of these matter a lot and impact our subjective experience when listening even though objectively and subjectively when volume-matched most people won't be able to distinguish them.
I'm doing a comparison of my amps at this thread to figure out for myself how much measurements of amps matter. Still struggling to hear differences between volume-matched low-SINAD class AB and high-SINAD class D amps, except the noise level difference which is significant.

 

[Deanbed]

So are what point do you officially become an audiophile. Is there a price point because you want to show off equipment wealth or is it a name the elitist uses to put themselves in to say they hear better than you considering we all have different hearing or finally is it someone that's life revolves with an obsession around anything musically connected equipment or artist/ music format regardless of wealth. I personally think it should be the latter.

 

[amirm]

So are what point do you officially become an audiophile.

When you pay attention to how the gear performs and try to optimize that (in addition to liking music). This could happen at all price tiers/limits.

 

[AdamG]

So are what point do you officially become an audiophile.

Joining ASR is the first step in our 10 step program. Welcome Aboard!

 

[Deanbed]

When you pay attention to how the gear performs and try to optimize that (in addition to liking music). This could happen at all price tiers/limits.

Wow I am an audiophile then. I am always tinkering, reading, upgrading, adjusting, look at all styles of music & formats but to within a reasonable budget. The only strict guidelines is it has to look good, sound should impress me (even the wife commented sound quality on my last upgrade), & fit in in with the lounge decor. Oh & I subscribe to What HiFi. & love Vinyl shops. Yeah maybe I am official then lol.

 

[xnor]

(even the wife commented sound quality on my last upgrade)

 

[TheBatsEar]

Why though, since price is no indicator of performance?

Once you step over $6000, the relationship between price and performance emerges.

Just kidding, we don't know, based on you list. But i too suspect it's all over the place at prices above $6000.

So are what point do you officially become an audiophile.

You like music and fiddle with gear to reproduce it? That's all it takes.

 

[TheBatsEar]

I'm sure Amir is itching to break his back lifting 50kg amplifiers.

Sold a Yamaha A-S1000 amp yesterday, roughly 25kg.

The buyer was already huffing and puffing when he stepped from my flat into the lift. He was spent once he was at his car, shaking like a sh**ting dog.

The struggle is real. 50kg is nothing to laugh at, even to younger folk.