Topping preamp

[EdW]

Just proper subwoofer integration, room correction, and speaker equalization for all of my sources. It is easy to do in a system with a singular digital source but then why would you need an analog preamp like this?

Understood the sub requirement - makes perfect sense. With my speakers I don’t really need a sub. The vast majority of my music is now streamed and so will run through the DAC but I do prefer an analog volume control over downscaling the digital data by using the digital volume control on the D90. Probably little discernible improvement but I don’t willingly give away performance. I also still have some analog signal sources too and would like to listen to them from time to time.

 

[Beershaun]

@TimW Thanks for the suggestions. It seems like the industry doesn't have a good simple solution for handling bookshelf+subwoofer setups with separates for primarily music listening. You end up back at AVR style receivers or multiple separate units with the equivalent SINAD levels.

Yes the miniDSP seems to be the common solution. Or if you have a subwoofer with speaker level input you can hook it up to your amp speaker outputs.

I also thought about replacing the E30 with DAC with both XLR and RCA outputs and digital volume control. Then to then send an RCA signal to the sub and XLR signals to the amp.

 

[Vasr]

Pre90 has an optional extender.
Pre90 itself has the same IO as A90 on the back. 1 XLR + 1 RCA for both inputs and outputs.
Extender has extra 4 pairs of XLR inputs and 1 rca input. No extra outputs.
It has cut down A90 NFCA circuitry but still much more powerful than majority of headphone amps. But it's a preamp.
Relay switching volume control for best distortion and great separation.
Has a screen. Has a remote. Has safe volume.
Low noise, Low distortion as usual.
Reduced single ended ground related issue possibilities.

I am not sure I understand the common use case for this. This is an all analog unit yes?

People still have need for up to 5 analog inputs to go into a single amp?

If I have 2 or 3 sources with digital outs to play via an amp with source selection and volume control, how many of the Topping boxes would I need to string together and how many converters or adapters? Why can't there be a single great measuring device to do this? Seems like the most common use case these days.

I don't own any Parasounds but this one
https://parasound.com/p6.php

has the most intelligently designed product functionality for a pre-amp. Have no clue how it measures/sounds and it is not cheap and does not have room eq/DSP possibility. miniDSP SHD is probably the closest and it comes with Dirac.

I wish someone would do a great sounding/measuring version of the above than these zillion desktop boxes. To get the equivalent functionality of the Parasound above, one may spend more than what that one costs by stringing multiple boxes along.

 

[Matias]

*side note: heck maybe Topping should also get into power amps i.e. NCore or Purifi based!

I once suggested the same but if I remember correctly (@JohnYang1997 correct me if I am wrong) Topping is going to develop their own power amp stages on class AB.

 

[Koeitje]

Subs should have low pass by themselves. If not, get a different sub...

Sure, I was just asking if there will be some sort of crossover in the pre-amp (high pass). There are only a handful of stereo pre-amps that allow for proper sub integration. The Parasound P5/P6 is a good example of what a modern pre-amp should look like (apart from possibly to many rca inputs).

 

[Racheski]

What is the "thing" I can plug my subwoofer line level input into between my E30 DAC and a 2 channel AMP for my ELAC DBR62s to get a signal to it without going through ADDA processing? And I'll need volume control. I have "heard" the E30 volume control function is not very clean and affects the sound quality. That's what I haven't been able to fit into my nefareous plan to remove my old AVR from the chain and replace it with a VTV 2ch amp for my ELACs.

I can use my RBPI streamer for room correction and use the sub's built in crossover and phase correction to handle low pass filtering and delay.

What about this?
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...urements-of-yamaha-wxa-50-streaming-amp.7964/

 

[GeorgeWalk]

I am not sure I understand the common use case for this. This is an all analog unit yes?

People still have need for up to 5 analog inputs to go into a single amp?

If I have 2 or 3 sources with digital outs to play via an amp with source selection and volume control, how many of the Topping boxes would I need to string together and how many converters or adapters? Why can't there be a single great measuring device to do this? Seems like the most common use case these days.

I don't own any Parasounds but this one
https://parasound.com/p6.php

has the most intelligently designed product functionality for a pre-amp. Have no clue how it measures/sounds and it is not cheap and does not have room eq/DSP possibility. miniDSP SHD is probably the closest and it comes with Dirac.

I wish someone would do a great sounding/measuring version of the above than these zillion desktop boxes. To get the equivalent functionality of the Parasound above, one may spend more than what that one costs by stringing multiple boxes along.

I have a Parasound 200 Pre that does a really nice job managing multiple inputs while also providing subwoofer output.
https://parasound.com/200_Pre.php

 

[Vasr]

I have a Parasound 200 Pre that doese a really nice job managing multiple inputs while also providing subwoofer output.
https://parasound.com/200_Pre.php

Nice. That looks like the same functionality as the P6 at a lower price point trading off XLR connectors and DAC (not that the Burr Browns are bad DACs, I doubt anyone can hear the differences between any of these and the Toppings). I also like the thin form factor.

 

[GeorgeWalk]

Nice. That looks like the same functionality as the P6 at a lower price point trading off XLR connectors and DAC (not that the Burr Browns are bad DACs, I doubt anyone can hear the differences between any of these and the Toppings). I also like the thin form factor.

I have tried the internal Burr Brown dac and compared it with my Topping D50s. I can't hear a difference (not blind ABX testing). I use this system to drive my home office speakers so I am not listening that critically. I would love to see it tested here, but I don't think I want to ship it out.

 

[ririt]

Pre90 has an optional extender.
Pre90 itself has the same IO as A90 on the back. 1 XLR + 1 RCA for both inputs and outputs.
Extender has extra 4 pairs of XLR inputs and 1 rca input. No extra outputs.
It has cut down A90 NFCA circuitry but still much more powerful than majority of headphone amps. But it's a preamp.
Relay switching volume control for best distortion and great separation.
Has a screen. Has a remote. Has safe volume.
Low noise, Low distortion as usual.
Reduced single ended ground related issue possibilities.

When would it be available? what about its price?

 

[Beershaun]

What about this?
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...urements-of-yamaha-wxa-50-streaming-amp.7964/

Thanks! That looks promising.

It looks like they also have a pre-amp only version as well. https://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio_visual/wireless_streaming_amplifiers/wxc-50/

 

[Beershaun]

I should put some numbers around my statements and clarify what I'm trying to piece together related to this thread.
How can I build a high SINAD stereo+sub setup with separate simple pieces for a reasonable price? So I can see and experience what a well engineered high SINAD system actually sounds like and see what all the audiophile fuss is about. And judge for myself if it's worth chasing or just buy another Denon AVR and be happy.

I can use my Raspberry pi as a streamer and PEQ to handle room correction.
the Topping E30 has a SINAD of 112DB.-check
The VTV purifi1400a 2ch amp is ~$1200 and and the purifi amp tested by Amir has a SINAD of 104DB. -check
Way to hook up my subwoofer and get volume control without ending up back in AVR SINAD territory. ??
The Denon AVR-X3700H gives us a SINAD of 98DB. Can I do better than this? Can I put together a system that gets me ~104DB SINAD with the Amplifier being the limiting factor?

 

[TimW]

I should put some numbers around my statements and clarify what I'm trying to piece together related to this thread.
How can I build a high SINAD stereo+sub setup with separate simple pieces for a reasonable price? So I can see and experience what a well engineered high SINAD system actually sounds like and see what all the audiophile fuss is about. And judge for myself if it's worth chasing or just buy another Denon AVR and be happy.

the Topping E30 has a SINAD of 112DB.-check
The VTV purifi1400a 2ch amp is ~$1200 and and the purifi amp tested by Amir has a SINAD of 104DB. -check
Way to hook up my subwoofer and get volume control without ending up back in AVR SINAD territory. ??
The Denon AVR-X3700H gives us a SINAD of 98DB. Can I do better than this? Can I put together a system that gets me ~104DB SINAD with the Amplifier being the limiting factor?

MiniDSP SHD with a measured SINAD of 111.

 

[Beershaun]

Looks like there is also an integrated amp version as well that might be a good solution to send to amir to see how it measures. https://www.minidsp.com/products/streaming-hd-series/shd-power

(Tries not to reach for wallet...)

 

[typericey]

Pre90 has an optional extender.
Pre90 itself has the same IO as A90 on the back. 1 XLR + 1 RCA for both inputs and outputs.
Extender has extra 4 pairs of XLR inputs and 1 rca input. No extra outputs.
It has cut down A90 NFCA circuitry but still much more powerful than majority of headphone amps. But it's a preamp.
Relay switching volume control for best distortion and great separation.
Has a screen. Has a remote. Has safe volume.
Low noise, Low distortion as usual.
Reduced single ended ground related issue possibilities.

Thanks for the insider info.

To be completely honest, I am a tad turned off by the optional extender bit. I was hoping to have multiple (2 or 3) inputs in one box. While I'm sure Topping can design the extender to have no performance/measurement impact, the thought of adding an extra link in the chain is fussy/cluttered to me:

Sources > Extender > Pre90 > Amp

I'm guessing Topping went the Pre90 + extender route because they wanted to maximize the tooling of the D90/A90 case and for "stackability", though there is no way to fit multiple inputs in one case. How about making the XLR input 1 and the RCA input 2? I personally would prefer this than an extender.

I was hoping for it to be more like the Freya S in terms of connectivity, and I could've just gotten that Schiit, but it's unobtainable in my side of the globe, and I'm most certain Topping can blow it out of the water in terms of measured performance.

 

[VMAT4]

Looks like there is also an integrated amp version as well that might be a good solution to send to amir to see how it measures. https://www.minidsp.com/products/streaming-hd-series/shd-power

(Tries not to reach for wallet...)

Elsewhere in the forum I have suggested this. Amir replied that it was in the works.

 

[typericey]

I am not sure I understand the common use case for this. This is an all analog unit yes?

People still have need for up to 5 analog inputs to go into a single amp?

If I have 2 or 3 sources with digital outs to play via an amp with source selection and volume control, how many of the Topping boxes would I need to string together and how many converters or adapters? Why can't there be a single great measuring device to do this? Seems like the most common use case these days.

I don't own any Parasounds but this one
https://parasound.com/p6.php

has the most intelligently designed product functionality for a pre-amp. Have no clue how it measures/sounds and it is not cheap and does not have room eq/DSP possibility. miniDSP SHD is probably the closest and it comes with Dirac.

I wish someone would do a great sounding/measuring version of the above than these zillion desktop boxes. To get the equivalent functionality of the Parasound above, one may spend more than what that one costs by stringing multiple boxes along.

Maybe not 5 analog inputs, but typically more than one. I personally need a preamp to switch between a DAC and a phono preamp.

While a DAC-pre like that Parasound is a convenient solution, I'd prefer to "string together" a dedicated DAC and phono stage. This way I have an option to change the DAC and phono stage.

 

[JohnYang1997]

I am not sure I understand the common use case for this. This is an all analog unit yes?

People still have need for up to 5 analog inputs to go into a single amp?

If I have 2 or 3 sources with digital outs to play via an amp with source selection and volume control, how many of the Topping boxes would I need to string together and how many converters or adapters? Why can't there be a single great measuring device to do this? Seems like the most common use case these days.

I don't own any Parasounds but this one
https://parasound.com/p6.php

has the most intelligently designed product functionality for a pre-amp. Have no clue how it measures/sounds and it is not cheap and does not have room eq/DSP possibility. miniDSP SHD is probably the closest and it comes with Dirac.

I wish someone would do a great sounding/measuring version of the above than these zillion desktop boxes. To get the equivalent functionality of the Parasound above, one may spend more than what that one costs by stringing multiple boxes along.

5 probably not but it's good to have especially for a dedicated add-on option that cost some money.
I can see the need for people switching inputs like from music system, home cinema system, TV, maybe another DAC to compare with. Who knows. There are some other boutique manufacturers that have these many inputs.
There's really no better option because the size of pre90 is fixed in the beginning of the project. Only possibility is to use 6.35 TRS for Balanced. But i also know that many TRS cables are not up to balanced connection standard. So it's much better to avoid that.

 

[Vasr]

5 probably not but it's good to have especially for a dedicated add-on option that cost some money.

I can understand that rationale but hard to justify from a customer point of view unless it is a $20 add-on. May be it is.

I can see the need for people switching inputs like from music system, home cinema system, TV, maybe another DAC to compare with.

All of the above have gone to digital outputs now and have been for a while with at least TOSLINK. Home cinema systems have gone multi-channel (or a TOSLINK bitstreaming of 5.1 over 2 channels). This is why I don't understand why you would target the last of the holdouts still in analog for any of those functions. Phono is about the only analog requirement for equipment people are still buying.

Even Parasound made a colossal mistake with their P7 (analog inputs gone nuts!) and have discontinued it and are clearing it out at bargain basement prices.

I see the pre-amp chain hierarchy in increasing requirements as

DAC+Vol Control
DAC+Vol Control+ Source switch (2-3 analog, 2-3 digital)
DAC+Vol Control+ Source switch (2-3 analog, 2-3 digital) + Sub output with crossover
DAC+Vol Control+ Source switch (2-3 analog, 2-3 digital) + Sub output with crossover + HT Bypass
DAC+Vol Control+ Source switch (2-3 analog, 2-3 digital) + Sub output with crossover + HT Bypass + DSP RoomEQ
DAC+Vol Control+ Source switch (2-3 analog, 2-3 digital) + Sub output with crossover + HT Bypass + DSP RoomEQ + Streamers

The market is fragmented between the above combinations of needs to cater to just one or two.
The all-in-one boxes get restrictive and expensive as you go up that chain.
If you can figure out how to cater to those multiple needs with some partitioning of those functions in 2-3 boxes so they can be easily chained, then people could buy just what they need and add more as needed.

The obsession with good measurements is great but I am afraid that it is making many boutique shops ignore larger customer needs over a broader segment.

 

[JohnYang1997]

Ah shit. I got it wrong. It's 3 XLRs and 1 RCA.