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Topping PA5 Review (Amplifier)

Billy Budapest

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I would also be happier if a version of the PA5 would be released without the volume pot. Given that many people will be using the PA5 with DACs that already have digital volume controls, or preamps that already have analog volume controls, another volume control is redundant. It also introduces the potential for increasing noise and introducing channel imbalance.
 
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aj625

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ok then let's start from scratch. you have speakers of 8ohm nominal impedance and amp with output impedance of say 0.1ohm. your normal listening level requires say 18w at speakers. so for 18w into 8ohm makes required voltage at speakers as 12v ( P=V^2/R) and corresponding current = 1.5A (i=V/R). for 1.5A current in the circuit, the voltage for internals of amp= 1.5x0.1=0.15V ( where 0.1ohm is output impedance of amp ). now lets find the power available for the frequencies where the load impedance drops to say 2ohm, assuming that amp is still providing overall voltage as 12+0.15=12.15V. now 12.15=i*(0.1+2) ( 0.1ohm is output impedance and 2 ohm is load impedance for frequencies for which impedance dips low ) so i here comes out to be 5.79 A. so power available in those frequencies is i^2*R=5.79^2*2=67.04w ( obviously this will be for momentarily music passages )

now we have an amp having 1.5ohm output impedance and we are still using those same speakers and listening for same 18w output at speakers ( here obviously 18w are as per average listening levels ). now voltage for internals of amp will be 1.5x1.5=2.25V (1.5A is current in circuit as calculated earlier corresponding to 18w in 8 ohm speakers and 1.5ohm is output impedance of amp ). so overall voltage by amp will be 12V+2.25V=14.25V ( you see with higher output impedance of amp the available voltage is less so you may need to crank up the volume to still get those 12v and 18w at speakers ) . now again current available for passages when load impedance dips to 2ohm, 14.25/(1.5+2)=4.07A ( 1.5ohm is output impedance and 2ohm is load impedance for passages when impedance dips low). now power available to those frequencies when impedance dips to low is 4.07^2*2=33.13w which is less than half of what when output impedance was 0.1ohm only. hope now it is clear how the higher output impedance is the culprit in not driving the difficult loads properly. higher impedance almost always thus colors the frequency response and is main reason for softer, slower and mushy sound of tube amps along with the usual harmonic distortion. :)
As per the above lines one can see that how low output impedance allows nearly doubling (or even quadrupling in some accuphase amps in 1/4 th impedance ) of power when halving the speaker impedance.
 

anphex

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Yup, that's it. I'm getting this little buddy for my surround speakers so I can run my Denon completely in pre amp mode. Yes, this may be an excuse just to get new gear but I don't care. Want!
 

nhs

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@amirm didn't mention the heat development inside the small case. Does any one consider and know more about the thermal aspect of this little toy?
 

Holmz

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The amp's output impedance and the speaker impedance form a voltage divider in the simplest sense of the stuff. Do I need to explain a voltage divider? :D

The earlier statement was, “both amps playing 20-40w”. Maybe we need to crank a small twist to get the volume the same, but 20w is 20w.
I did not see the amplifier’s output impedance in Amir’s opening post… How high was it?

And how do I process this with people talking about “tube amps should output impedance between 1 and 4 ohms?
And then also saying that tube amps make more bass?
 

Holmz

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Yup, that's it. I'm getting this little buddy for my surround speakers so I can run my Denon completely in pre amp mode. Yes, this may be an excuse just to get new gear but I don't care. Want!

I’ve had similar thoughts, but with the gain so low… and it being designed for >2v input… will it have enough juice?
 

anphex

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@amirm didn't mention the heat development inside the small case. Does any one consider and know more about the thermal aspect of this little toy?
The case doesn't really get warm he said in his review post at the very beginning. So the insides shouldn't get that hot.
I'd be interestet in a teardown though to see what amp modules those are.
 

PeteL

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The earlier statement was, “both amps playing 20-40w”. Maybe we need to crank a small twist to get the volume the same, but 20w is 20w.
I did not see the amplifier’s output impedance in Amir’s opening post… How high was it?

And how do I process this with people talking about “tube amps should output impedance between 1 and 4 ohms?
And then also saying that tube amps make more bass?
Are you talking tube power amps? (as opposed to headphone amps) Don't most of them have output (voltage) transformer which would have an open circuit as an output impedance? I am no expert in amps with output transformers but the power transfer work differently than typical amps with feedback no? I may be wrong.
 
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anphex

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Oh, I didn't notice the amp had a volume knob. If I connect it to my Denon, should I just leave the volume knob at maximum and adjust volume through the Denon preouts?
 

0bs3rv3r

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Are you talking tube power amps? (as opposed to headphone amps) Don't most of them have output (voltage) transformer which would have an open circuit as an output impedance? I am no expert in amps with output transformers but the power transfer work differently than typical amps with feedback no? I may be wrong.

You can, and usually do, still have feedback around the output transformer. Normally the speaker voltage is fed back to an earlier stage. Also, the output is not an open circuit. The secondary winding is terminated in a matching impedance (of the apeaker)
 

nhs

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I'm interested in the volume knob but don't know, how does the PA5 perform if the volume knob is screwed down to 9:00 o'clock. Unfortunately, @amirm didn't measure the pre-amp function.
 

TNT

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Yes please - a version with fixed gain, i.e. no volume control, of any sort.

//
 

Doodski

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The earlier statement was, “both amps playing 20-40w”. Maybe we need to crank a small twist to get the volume the same, but 20w is 20w.
I did not see the amplifier’s output impedance in Amir’s opening post… How high was it?

And how do I process this with people talking about “tube amps should output impedance between 1 and 4 ohms?
And then also saying that tube amps make more bass?
and... then this comment I made.>

Doodski said:
The amp's output impedance and the speaker impedance form a voltage divider in the simplest sense of the stuff. Do I need to explain a voltage divider? :D

I read this underlined part of the comment today near a day later and see that is reads kind of like it could have different intentions. My intentions where of the best variety and I apologize if the comment seemed off or cocky in any way. I was actually wanting to know so I could organize my thoughts and lay them out. I saw that you are a scientist and perhaps I was too fast in the commentary with my commentary. :facepalm:
 
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misterdog

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Yes please - a version with fixed gain

Fixed at what level, I use my AHB2 with 9.2dB of gain, most would complain that it is not enough for them.
(AHB2 also provides switchable 17/23 dB gain)
 
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Calleberg

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Where is this preoccupation with the volume knob coming from? Ignore it if you don't want to use it. Seems people think a volume control is a preamp !!!!.
Agreed :)

How about; GREAT it has a variable gain control that I can use IF I want to...?

My heart goes out to the designers of consumer electronics trying to make everyone happy...
 
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antcollinet

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Agreed :), Lots of cry babies going on and on, about that...

"Buhu, it has a Volume control!", "The Volume Control is the wrong color", "I hate Volume control". And to top it all off, Mr Clueless chimes in with: "Does it have Volume Control?":facepalm:... epic

This is Chi-fi so most likely you can just rip the knob right out and throw it away if you have such grave issues with it.;)

I´m kidding of course... But my heart goes out to the designers of consumer electronics trying to satisfy all these morons people.
I refer you to:
 

Calleberg

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I refer you to:
Point taken, I revised my post ever so slightly...:)
 

aj625

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Fixed at what level, I use my AHB2 with 9.2dB of gain, most would complain that it is not enough for them.
(AHB2 also provides switchable 17/23 dB gain)
Exactly I also never required to go to even medium gain on ahb2. Modern dacs have high enough clean output for low gain of ahb2. What more the beauty of ahb2 is that it is rated 100w RMS at it's minimum distortion figures not at 10% thd or not even 1% thd. So ahb2 is lot more powerful than many other high end amps.
 
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