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Topping Mini 300 Amplifier Review
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Bleib
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No. no pre-outCan the Mini be used with a pre-amp? I mean I know it's called a power amp, but the fact that it has volume control confuses me
So I couldn't take the Topping E70 rca out to a Fosi P3 back to the Mini rca inputs?
harkpabst
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Now you are confusing me. Why would a power amp (Mini300) need a pre-out? It has a line level input, that's all it needs to be used with a pre-amp ...
Yes, you could, if your plan is to deliberately add distortion to the output of the E70.
ziggurcat
Major Contributor
Can the Mini be used with a pre-amp? I mean I know it's called a power amp, but the fact that it has volume control confuses me
If you have an E70 DAC (or most Topping DACs, as well as most other DAC companies) paired with the Mini 300, you can choose to either set the DAC in preamp mode (making the DAC the device used to control volume) or DAC mode (making the amp the device used to control the volume). Unless you need a RCA input, there's no need to have the P3 at all because the E70 (I'm assuming) you have can effectively be used as a preamp. If you use the DAC in preamp mode, you just turn the volume knob on the Mini 300 all the way to its max (or roughly 80% if you don't want to crank it all the way up).
I believe a different method of setting the amp volume if you use the E70 in preamp mode is to first set your DAC to DAC mode, turn the volume up on the Mini 300 until it's as loud as you will ever want it to go, then set the DAC back to preamp mode. I think it was explained that doing it that way was a better method to guard against clipping.
Is it? For a hand crafted small volume bit of audiophile jewelry maybe but what is the practicality of doing that for a mass manufactured low cost amplifier? Can you point to any examples of this being done?
edit: Or do you mean that rather than send out a factory special they might just test the sample to make sure it conforms to spec before sending for review?
ziggurcat
Major Contributor
Yeah, that assertion is nonsense.
harkpabst
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I wouldn't exactly call this ...
... nonsense and maybe that's what @HKPolice meant to refer to. But as @Bleib pointed out, Archimago came to the same excellent results at least with the PA5 Mk II Plus that he sourced on his own. The Mini 300 or Mini300 (or whatever name Topping might eventually settle on) is not identical to the PA 5 Mk II. But it's definitely a very similar device. The question remains why it sells so much cheaper than the PA5 Mk II ...
... nonsense and maybe that's what @HKPolice meant to refer to. But as @Bleib pointed out, Archimago came to the same excellent results at least with the PA5 Mk II Plus that he sourced on his own. The Mini 300 or Mini300 (or whatever name Topping might eventually settle on) is not identical to the PA 5 Mk II. But it's definitely a very similar device. The question remains why it sells so much cheaper than the PA5 Mk II ...
In the PC hardware industry where everything is also mass manufactured, CPUs & GPUs get binned and most of the time, only top tier samples get sent to reviewers. This is pretty common practice & I don't see why it couldn't happen in the Audiophile industry.
There are tolerances in all ICs, including what's in DACs & amps. Topping & other manufs could bin ICs before installing them but chances are they're just trusting their supplier that the ICs are within spec and QC happens after assembly.
It could be that Topping has super strict QC and all products that pass will measure within margin of error, but it's also possible that only golden samples get sent to reviewers and some retail samples could measure audible worse/unbalanced.
It's easy to cross reference reviews of PC hardware as there's so many reviewers running the same/similar benchmarks, but ASR is the main source of measurement data, so I'm just trying to find other sources.
There are tolerances in all ICs, including what's in DACs & amps. Topping & other manufs could bin ICs before installing them but chances are they're just trusting their supplier that the ICs are within spec and QC happens after assembly.
It could be that Topping has super strict QC and all products that pass will measure within margin of error, but it's also possible that only golden samples get sent to reviewers and some retail samples could measure audible worse/unbalanced.
It's easy to cross reference reviews of PC hardware as there's so many reviewers running the same/similar benchmarks, but ASR is the main source of measurement data, so I'm just trying to find other sources.
The "golden sample" theory is absolutely possible. But the only way to really know for sure whether a product has massive unit variation is to make more measurements with different samples.
I think it would be good if other users repeated measurements on their own units independently, instead of trusting that Amir's sample is representative of every single iteration of that product.
I think we as humans have gotten too accustomed to things such as mass production and the digital realm (where 1 means 1 and 0 means 0), and we somehow ended up believing that every product has to come out of the factory identical to the previous one on the production line.
That's obviously not the case, and the margin for error only increases when we move away from PCBs and chips and start analyzing more "analog" devices such as headphones, potentiometers, etc.
harkpabst
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The chip alone changes nothing. It's either within its spec or not. Dies from the same wafer can have different properties for sure and these in fact binned. But except from scrap (Intel invented the Celeron, so they could even sell scrap with non-functioning cache) the difference comes in the next steps: Different PCB layouts, components, cooling, firmware.
If anybody is cheating in the GPU business they are not simply sending out "golden samples", they would need to basically counterfeit their own product, havin it run different firmware, at least.
DACs (the number of which in this product is zero) and amplifier chips (probably one) don't benefit from overlooking.
In this scenario the chip alone changes as much as with GPUs. And yes, pretty much all (small) audio companies will probably perform 200% QC before sending out a review sample. Simply to make sure they don't deliver a faulty product. I see no evidence at all for better performance through selected chip amplifiers or opamps.
One such source has been pointed out.
RandomEar
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Honestly, this "golden sample" thing doesn't account for much, even in the CPU or GPU space. Those chips are all operating at the border of what's physically possible clock-wise and power-wise. And even then, typical deviations between samples in the default configuration are in the range of 2%.
A) You wouldn't even see 2% difference on a log scale like dB and
B) common semiconductor parts in class D amps are not operating at the absolute limit of what's physically possible clock-wise. Thermally, standard testing scenarios like 5W into 4 Ω are also far away from any limit.
"Golden samples" for reviewers are mostly a thing in the enthusiast space, where they check overclocking. Because headroom is extremely low nowadays, it looks much better on a graph if your card can reach 8% higher clocks than factory vs. 4% - after all, that's double the overclock!
(Don't mind the fact that neither will result in perceivable performance differences.)
A) You wouldn't even see 2% difference on a log scale like dB and
B) common semiconductor parts in class D amps are not operating at the absolute limit of what's physically possible clock-wise. Thermally, standard testing scenarios like 5W into 4 Ω are also far away from any limit.
"Golden samples" for reviewers are mostly a thing in the enthusiast space, where they check overclocking. Because headroom is extremely low nowadays, it looks much better on a graph if your card can reach 8% higher clocks than factory vs. 4% - after all, that's double the overclock!
(Don't mind the fact that neither will result in perceivable performance differences.)
Works fine for me, sounds transparent, drives my reasonably efficient speakers without issue, especially since I high-pass them at 40Hz. Feeding it with a Topping E50 II DAC. 12V trigger works perfectly from WiiM Ultra without issue. There is no real power-on noise, and there is only the very faintest power-off popping sound and I don't always even hear that. Doesn't get past luke-warm after several hours of nonstop playback at about 70dB average from 10 feet away.So... has anybody actually given this little amp a go and can they share their experience with it?
I'm very tempted!
So... has anybody actually given this little amp a go and can they share their experience with it?
I'm very tempted!
I wrote a brief comment on page 13.
I'll add...my ears are telling me it's better than the Bryston I had (B60) - it has qualities you would want improved in any Class AB...everyone wants a smoother more detailed sound right? I keep hearing things in passages of music the Bryston was incapable of, new "abilities" if you will. Stereo things, depth, any reverb/decay present in the recording.
Your subjective perception is noted, but they would probably be more appreciated on the typical "I trust my ears" audiophile forum.
Ben Jenssen
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I've been using it everyday for a couple of months now. It's fed by my E30 II and it drives my Dynaudio BM6 speakers. It replaced a Sony TA FA30ES.So... has anybody actually given this little amp a go and can they share their experience with it?
I'm very tempted!
It's very nice and clean sounding, almost too perfect, to the extent that it becomes almost a bit too boring, lifeless. I find I miss the 'warmth' of the old Sony, how it was kind of 'louder' at low levels, and easier to listen to at loud levels. I don't miss the dirtier, duller highs, though.
So, I'm actually looking for a way back into class A amps again. I almost went for a 25yr old Electrocompaniet AW 60 last weekend, but it needed service, so I dropped it. Might explain the low asking price of ~$400usd.
Been using mine daily for a few months as well. Using with Wiim Mini, SMSL SU-1 and Polk ES20's. Sounds fully transparent to me, as the measurements demonstrate. Has been problem free and barely heats up at all.
Get a cheap DSP box, that way you can add as much coloration and distortion as you want.
Ben Jenssen
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