Topping LA90 Review (Integrated Amplifier)

[Ellisr63]

Given that noise and distortion isn't an issue on any of the top 15 amps tested I'm wondering what the point of it is? How big is the market for modestly powered ultra-fi?

I guess we're about to find out.

I think it is designed for nearfield speakers in a desktop environment, but a lot of people with high efficiency speakers are using them for their main setup too.

 

[Vini darko]

Can you please help me interpret this graph?

What we see is the amp behaves very well with increasing impedance. We get 1.5 watt into 300Ω and 25 watt into 16Ω. Performance is noise limited essentially all the way to max output ( the traces point down untill bumping into apx555 limitations).
The reducing noise is simply a result of termal loss due to increased impeadance.
The reducing power is due to higher impeadance drawing less current. Voltage output remains the same for all loads at about 20V.
Edit while noise is very low for a speaker amp it isn't sota by headphone amplifier standards.

 

[pjug]

@amirm can you tell us if the power supply is +/- 32V, or if they are doing something unusual with a +64V supply. Sorry if this info was already given.

 

[Ellisr63]

it’s a great measuring product for smaller rooms, desktop setups and efficient speakers. for big rooms and big multi-way speakers not so much. i appreciate the engineering but the use case isn’t me.

I use PA5s in a 25,000CF room with K402 horns and it is plenty of power.

 

[Deleted member 46664]

@amirm can you tell us if the power supply is +/- 32V, or if they are doing something unusual with a +64V supply. Sorry if this info was already given.

Given the 3 pin power supply connector, I'd bet it is a dual supply. About 2 minutes with a volt meter would tell us...

 

[pjug]

Given the 3 pin power supply connector, I'd bet it is a dual supply. About 2 minutes with a volt meter would tell us...

Yes, you'd think so but the labeling as +64V brought up the question earlier in the thread and I didn't see if it was answered. Tough thread to keep up on!

 

[jhaider]

This amp with one of their balanced DAC's fed by a lossless source feeding some 87 dB+ eff speakers will give SotA performance.

That setup would likely have vanishingly low noise, so-good-as-nonexistent distortion…and quite low fidelity to the source material. Unless one’s listening room is the size of the Musikverein, in room the upper bass and lower mids will be lower fidelity compared to a modern signal chain, i.e. one with bass management and room correction and a thoughtful target curve, or well executed manual modal region EQ. See, e.g. Amir’s KEF R3 review and thread. (Executive summary: he disliked them at first listen despite the superb NFS measurements. Later, he realized the problem was an upper bass room mode and not the loudspeaker.)

Put another way, in a blind preference test between a well calibrated NAD T758 or MartinLogan Forte (which is a Paradigm PW-AMP with better streaming support) and a “purist” magic SINAD signal chain with this amp, one should expect to lose money betting against the SINAD-fail AVR with Dirac Live or budget baby integrated with the latest Anthem Room Correction.

That also goes to the point that, however one ranks a super quiet low power low distortion power amp, as an integrated amp one can’t sensibly consider this one better than headless failure, because it lacks bass management or at least a preout/main-in loop to allow for real signal processing. I hope soon Topping and other such newer audio companies backed by serious engineering chops start actually taking fidelity seriously by thinking about how to incorporate modern features and the required UI, rather than just chasing numbers.

 

[srkbear]

What we see is the amp behaves very well with increasing impedance. We get 1.5 watt into 300Ω and 25 watt into 16Ω. Performance is noise limited essentially all the way to max output ( the traces point down untill bumping into apx555 limitations).
The reducing noise is simply a result of termal loss due to increased impeadance.
The reducing power is due to higher impeadance drawing less current. Voltage output remains the same for all loads at about 20V.
Edit while noise is very low for a speaker amp it isn't sota by headphone amplifier standards.

Thanks, I get the general idea now but I’m still unsure of the Y axis. The key suggests it’s plotting something akin to SINAD but it’s in ratio format and I’m too green to grasp that apparently ‍

 

[Ingenieur]

That setup would likely have vanishingly low noise, so-good-as-nonexistent distortion…and quite low fidelity to the source material. Unless one’s listening room is the size of the Musikverein, in room the upper bass and lower mids will be lower fidelity compared to a modern signal chain, i.e. one with bass management and room correction and a thoughtful target curve, or well executed manual modal region EQ. See, e.g. Amir’s KEF R3 review and thread. (Executive summary: he disliked them at first listen despite the superb NFS measurements. Later, he realized the problem was an upper bass room mode and not the loudspeaker.)

Put another way, in a blind preference test between a well calibrated NAD T758 or MartinLogan Forte (which is a Paradigm PW-AMP with better streaming support) and a “purist” magic SINAD signal chain with this amp, one should expect to lose money betting against the SINAD-fail AVR with Dirac Live or budget baby integrated with the latest Anthem Room Correction.

That also goes to the point that, however one ranks a super quiet low power low distortion power amp, as an integrated amp one can’t sensibly consider this one better than headless failure, because it lacks bass management or at least a preout/main-in loop to allow for real signal processing. I hope soon Topping and other such newer audio companies backed by serious engineering chops start actually taking fidelity seriously by thinking about how to incorporate modern features and the required UI, rather than just chasing numbers.

Too much fuss for too little gain (if any).
Good speaker selection
Good speaker location
Decent acoustics, rugs, drapes, etc.
It will sound great and not be the limiting factor: ears and material will be.

There is a reason few mfgs. develop digital signal processing/EQ/correction.
It adds little, may not add any.
It is useful for home theater.

But to each their own.

 

[SegaCD]

This is definitely a wild thread. A real decisive... device without a doubt. I'm sure this (along with the D90S and other Topping achievements) will eventually bring some interesting competition out of the woodwork given some time. The future is bright, no doubt thanks to ASR.

Maybe I missed this mentioned in the comments but since a lot of folks are having hang-ups about power output... Y'all know people are spending thousands of dollars for 5-30 watt tube amps like the McIntosh MC225, right? It's not hard to stay below clipping on a 35W amp at normal listening levels. With that being said, does a 120dBA SNR matter when ambient room noise is maybe 60dBA below what many efficient speakers will push with 35W into a room?

I'm mostly interested in the long-term reliability of the amp. Unlike headphone amps, etc, speaker amps can push some serious wattage and can be literal firestarters. As someone in the electronics industry, I know that approvals and field testing take a long time and can reveal many edge cases that were missed in the design phase and by in-house QA. I am generally not a huge fan of how quickly Topping revises their product lines, like a phone's lifecycle....and I've had 50/50 luck with my Topping purchases being defective to reinforce my fears. I would definitely prefer a lower performing amplifier from a company known for reliability than blow my speakers/set voice coils ablaze. I see the amp is, oddly enough, FW updatable likely for such a reason. But, regardless, such risks are part of the early adopter tax of investing in any relatively new technology/company and for many, the benefits can outweigh the risks.

This amp is almost my end game amp. Good job Topping!

 

[Peternz]

This is a 34 Watt amp that costs $800... It just makes no sense. The SINAD, whatever it is will go down the sewer when it attempts to produce anything resembling convincing bass, the distortion will bleed into the higher frequencies which will sound fatiguing. That makes this thing completely pointless for those of us who do not have high efficiency horn loaded speakers or the like. Forget about using this with inefficient 2 way speakers or Magnepans.

 

[Helicopter]

Who makes an NC500MP amp with VU meters? That sounds pretty cool and I've never seen one.

@Rick Sykora did the heavy lifting on my custom amp. I added some finishing touches. It is still an ongoing project even though it serves in my main system. I still need to paint the glass, and finish soldering some temporary connections.

 

[Garrincha]

Many, including myself, while recognizing top performance, argue about the usefulness of making many compromise choices in order to obtain a very valid result on paper but absolutely inaudible to human ears, and would prefer a design with fewer star ambitions and more concreteness than common use.

I really don't get the point, this site is about measuring and testing new and used equipment. Also recommendations are given. But everybody has a different budget and different preferences. There are so many amps out there, new and used, that are relatively cheap, have more power and more options. There must be something for your taste and needs. I use, under many, a German T+A 1530 intergrated amp from the 90s, which I already bought used. Very reliable, beautiful and sturdy built and probably measures also reasonably good (but for sure not SOTA). (It has, by the way, a headphone amp section which is so good that I never discovered any sonically difference to dedicated, much more expensive headphone amps. I still bought a few, because I like them). Maybe you should spend more time in a used gear forum? If Amir encounteres the best measuring amps since the AHB2, which is from 2014, than this is something remarkable. If it matters in somebodys personal hifi setup is a totally different question.

 

[Garrincha]

This is a 34 Watt amp that costs $800... It just makes no sense. The SINAD, whatever it is will go down the sewer when it attempts to produce anything resembling convincing bass, the distortion will bleed into the higher frequencies which will sound fatiguing. That makes this thing completely pointless for those of us who do not have high efficiency horn loaded speakers or the like. Forget about using this with inefficient 2 way speakers or Magnepans.

So what do you think about this 2 x 25 Watt at 8 Ohm $7.600 Pass Labs Class A amp then (https://store.acousticsounds.com/d/..._A_Integrated_Amplifier-Integrated_Amplifiers) ?

 

[PeteL]

Too much fuss for too little gain (if any).
Good speaker selection
Good speaker location
Decent acoustics, rugs, drapes, etc.
It will sound great and not be the limiting factor: ears and material will be.

There is a reason few mfgs. develop digital signal processing/EQ/correction.
It adds little, may not add any.
It is useful for home theater.

But to each their own.

I agree with you that in the grand scheme of things, if you can manage to acoustically get the fidelity, it may produce amazing results, but certainly not agree with you that it’s the « no fuss » aproach… DSP is no fuss.. Acoustic is hard, time consuming, expensive, unpractical with all other aspect of living, but sure if you had the money, the perfect space, the understanding wife, the time and the expertise… By all mean, nothing beats a great room.

 

[sam_adams]

And this is against the best amp I had ever measured before. Its noise level is actually Audio Precision analyzer limited. This is why you see those small jumps as the analyzer rescales and its noise figure goes up.

Great. Now we need an analyzer for analyzers. Then we'll have a ranking of SINAD for analyzers. And then there will be complaints about testing analyzers. Analyzers.

 

[DesertHawk]

So what do you think about this 2 x 25 Watt at 8 Ohm $7.600 Pass Labs Class A amp then (https://store.acousticsounds.com/d/..._A_Integrated_Amplifier-Integrated_Amplifiers) ?

nonsequitur. Plenty of high end brands have exorbitant prices. Doesn't mean anything when evaluating this particular amp.

 

[AndreaT]

$ 800 or $ 899? With Wall Street dropping like a stone, $ 99 might become meaningful as a dealmaker. Anyway, State of the Art measurements for a relatively low price. Thank you Amir, once more. Even the in mono 100 W per channel configuration, the quality/price is astonishingly high. Audible improvement or not to my ears (but I do believe it is, and it does wonders in the reproduction of a complex musical signal from multiple instruments) it shows how Mr.Yang is the Elon Musk of consumer's electronics.

 

[Garrincha]

nonsequitur. Plenty of high end brands have exorbitant prices. Doesn't mean anything when evaluating this particular amp.

Well, there are obviously people buying this stuff for that price. Half the power and about ten times the price. I wouldn't, although I think it is beautifully designed. What I just wanted to point out, is, that there is a market with many options in all directions and for sure the LA90 will find its followers, mostly rightly so, just not this guy.

 

[Ingenieur]

I agree with you that in the grand scheme of things, if you can manage to acoustically get the fidelity, it may produce amazing results, but certainly not agree with you that it’s the « no fuss » aproach… DSP is no fuss.. Acoustic is hard, time consuming, expensive, unpractical with all other aspect of living, but sure if you had the money, the perfect space, the understanding wife, the time and the expertise… By all mean, nothing beats a great room.

Most living rooms are acoustically fine if carpeted. The speakers if placed per the mfgs guidelines (or one of the many others) will be fine.

I did nothing to mine and it is flat, perhaps a bit of droop over 10 kHz, 'dead'.
RT60 = ITU room spec, might be better a bit more reverb.
I'm not going down any rabbit holes, bass traps, wall panels, etc.
This is my home, not a studio.
I'm happy with the outcome.