Topping LA90 Review (Integrated Amplifier)

[DualTriode]

Do you have any factual proof for an audible difference of all that?

When was the last time there was evidence of an audible difference?

You are confusing subjective reports by golden ears with objective measurements.

No one will ever be convinced either way.

 

[Wirrunna]

SashaR and nagster, thank you for your replies about temperature.
nagster, the photos are Gold. The LA90 and its power brick draw 20W at idle which brings the amplifier up to around 40C which explains why the temp in L7Audiolab's video started at 39~40C and went to 41C when the amp was outputting a sine wave at 5W. This implies that the LA90 will operate in class A until maybe 4W and above that it will draw more current and generate extra heat.

Billy Budapest and SashaR I ordered from the Audiophile Shop Australia in Melbourne, Addicted to Audio also are dropping their price.

 

[john11]

Do you have any factual proof for an audible difference of all that?

It does sound a lot better with the mods, huge improvement. like my pa5 sounded better than my pa3, when i checked amir's measurements the pa5 did score better in his battery of tests.
What more can i say ? I'm being fully honest and open, I only want to help other forum members, there's absolutly nothing for me to gain.
To state that only measurements and figures can decide how good an amp can sound is a little unfair as amir himself does use listening tests as well, so a subjective element is entered into. To think that listeners are so stupid they can't hear the difference between a budget amp and a high end amp, and that they are all imagining hearing any improvements is a very wide ranging point of view

 

[john11]

When was the last time there was evidence of an audible difference?

You are confusing subjective reports by golden ears with objective measurements.

No one will ever be convinced either way.

I agree. I’ve had this kind of conversation one time too many. It always ends in heartbreak.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

It does sound a lot better with the mods, huge improvement. like my pa5 sounded better than my pa3, when i checked amir's measurements the pa5 did score better in his battery of tests.
What more can i say ? I'm being fully honest and open, I only want to help other forum members, there's absolutly nothing for me to gain.
To state that only measurements and figures can decide how good an amp can sound is a little unfair as amir himself does use listening tests as well, so a subjective element is entered into. To think that listeners are so stupid they can't hear the difference between a budget amp and a high end amp, and that they are all imagining hearing any improvements is a very wide ranging point of view

When listening not blind and not level matched most likely everyone will hear a difference (Munson-Fletcher and human perceptional biases).
Therefore you are making the wrong assumptions for your selection and other people’s (subjective) opinions, not based facts, will not help you either as they are just a wrong.

But hey, your money….

 

[Purité Audio]

It does sound a lot better with the mods, huge improvement. like my pa5 sounded better than my pa3, when i checked amir's measurements the pa5 did score better in his battery of tests.
What more can i say ? I'm being fully honest and open, I only want to help other forum members, there's absolutly nothing for me to gain.
To state that only measurements and figures can decide how good an amp can sound is a little unfair as amir himself does use listening tests as well, so a subjective element is entered into. To think that listeners are so stupid they can't hear the difference between a budget amp and a high end amp, and that they are all imagining hearing any improvements is a very wide ranging point of view

When you made your comparison you used two units one with standard power supply the other with ‘upgraded ‘ power supply and switched unsighted between them?
Keith

 

[DSJR]

Silly question, but is the smps original supply regulated and the linear one not? That could possibly give a repeatable subjective and easily measured difference to an AB amp circuit if the music wasn't too compressed. Any sag in the non regulated linear supply would also be easy to spot.

 

[welwynnick]

I agree. I’ve had this kind of conversation one time too many. It always ends in heartbreak.

Me too. Objectivists insist that EVERY sighted test is unreliable and invalid. A lot of them certainly are, but not all of them. I've done a lot of blind and sighted AB comparisons over the years, and blind is certainly more difficult, but no-one's going to pay you to do it. So the "evidence" that everyone demands simply doesn't exist and never will.

Amir has done a lot to gather evidence, but all the charts still leave the question about where to draw the transparency line. What I've found is that the amplifiers that measure around 80dB SINAD aren't transparent, and I'm confident that I could winkle them out in a blind AB test. I'm not so confident about amps that measure over 100dB, like Amir's top 20, but in spite of the measurements, some people still don't like the sound of the LA90D or the AHB-2 for example.

The PA-5 measures better than 100dB, so I was interested to hear that you thought the linear power supply was an improvement. LPS often betray themselves with mains leakage components in the FFT, and the stock PA-5 had none of that, nor was there lots of high frequency noise.

I used to upgrade Meridian processors to LPS, and sold the mod to many people all over the World. It was all quite successful until Meridian brought out their own LPS, and offered it as a retrofit upgrade. Maybe I inspired them to do that, but perhaps they planned it all along. No matter, the LPS was an easy win, enabling the older 861V2 to outperform the newer 861V4. I also bought an Oppo BDP-93 LPS upgrade. Although the LPS was a worthwhile improvement, I hoped it might beat a stock BDP-95, but that was simply too good. My eager expectations should have biased me in favour of the '93, but my ears said no. Sometimes sighted listening does work.

So I'm disposed in favour of LPS upgrades, but this PA3 / PA5 / LA90 thing has got me thinking. I might just spend a bit of time and money and see for myself for fun. Claiming to hear the difference between two amps that measure better than 100dB would send this lot into a frenzy.

By the way, I was about to ask the same question as above about your LPS - was it regulated or not? Can you share your design / spec / pictures?

Cheers, Nick

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

Me too. Objectivists insist that EVERY sighted test is unreliable and invalid. A lot of them certainly are, but not all of them. I

I'd have thought the issue is that a sighted test can't be trusted.

It might be correct, with the sight causing no bias, but it might not be, and perhaps not only the person doing the testing has been biased, and it's unconscious.

Subsequently, it's not that the test will definitely be wrong, just that it's not possible to judge whether it can be trusted - as such it's 'unreliable': you can't rely on its accuracy.

 

[mike70]

I'd have thought the issue is that a sighted test can't be trusted.

It might be correct, with the sight causing no bias, but it might not be, and perhaps not only the person doing the testing has been biased, and it's unconscious.

Subsequently, it's not that the test will definitely be wrong, just that it's not possible to judge whether it can be trusted - as such it's 'unreliable': you can't rely on its accuracy.

Exactly. It's not about intentions, is about brain tricks that you can't control.

People needs to check about vision tricks (are more clear "to see" ) and think about the same effect but with listening.

https://cdn.computerhoy.com/sites/navi.axelspringer.es/public/media/image/2021/04/ilusion-optica-2292297.jpg

 

[antcollinet]

Objectivists insist that EVERY sighted test is unreliable and invalid.

They are not all invalid (they have validity to the person doing the test) - but they are all unreliable. How do we know which ones are genuinely based on hearing differences in the actual sound - compared with those rooted in cognitive bias.

Now - when you are changing things that are known to create an audible difference - such as adjusting equalisation - then it is possible to take the sighted listening at face value.

When someone claims to be able to hear something that is well down at the limit of audibility - it is not possible to take it at face value.

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

They are not all invalid (they have validity to the person doing the test) - but they are all unreliable.

I agree (to an extent, more in a moment) * . But that aside, that’s maybe stretching it just a little.

Any test which someone posts about, and which doesn’t carry a massive and clear caveat acknowledging the issues and problems we’ve discussed, is invalid to anyone reading it - a group we may call ‘the intended audience’. And from what I’ve seen, that’s pretty much all of them. But I appreciate I might have missed the odd one, so point taken. But the test is invalid to that ‘intended audience’. If the person posting their experience kept it to themselves, or as I say included caveats, perhaps that might be different.

* Even then, a person can fool themselves almost as easily as anyone else (Clever Hans, etc.). A person might believe that a self-administered sighted test proves to themselves that they heard a difference, even if they concede that’s quite rightly won’t be enough evidence for others. But that doesn’t change the bias they’re imposing on their own experience, nor the fact that this bias may disappear in future listening (the rest of their experience of the hi-fi they buy based on that test).

Phenomena and noumena.

 

[antcollinet]

I agree (to an extent, more in a moment) * . But that aside, that’s maybe stretching it just a little.

Any test which someone posts about, and which doesn’t carry a massive and clear caveat acknowledging the issues and problems we’ve discussed, is invalid to anyone reading it - a group we may call ‘the intended audience’. And from what I’ve seen, that’s pretty much all of them. But I appreciate I might have missed the odd one, so point taken. But the test is invalid to that ‘intended audience’. If the person posting their experience kept it to themselves, or as I say included caveats, perhaps that might be different.

* Even then, a person can fool themselves almost as easily as anyone else (Clever Hans, etc.). A person might believe that a self-administered sighted test proves to themselves that they heard a difference, even if they concede that’s quite rightly won’t be enough evidence for others. But that doesn’t change the bias they’re imposing on their own experience, nor the fact that this bias may disappear in future listening (the rest of their experience of the hi-fi they buy based on that test).

Phenomena and noumena.

Sounds like we are in violent agreement.

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

Sounds like we are in violent agreement.

The best kind.

 

[thdny]

After using this amp for about 9 months it started to make popping noise. The same issue is mentioned by other people too. I reached out to the seller on Amazon and I shipped it back to China for testing/fixing. Let's see what happens. Overall the amp was nice until the noise issue started. The power is not that much but I drive triangle gaia speakers and it works fine in a 1br new york apartment. I rarely need to increase the volume all the way up in low volume movie conversations.

 

[pogo]

Congratulations to everyone involved in the development of this amplifier.

Unfortunately, no endurance tests have been carried out. Design weaknesses like noise issues would certainly have appeared here.

 

[manisandher]

After using this amp for about 9 months it started to make popping noise. The same issue is mentioned by other people too. I reached out to the seller on Amazon and I shipped it back to China for testing/fixing. Let's see what happens. Overall the amp was nice until the noise issue started. The power is not that much but I drive triangle gaia speakers and it works fine in a 1br new york apartment. I rarely need to increase the volume all the way up in low volume movie conversations.

Was this the original LA90 or the more recent LA90D?

Mani.

 

[thdny]

Original LA90

 

[Ziofrenko]

No good news... Uff

 

[RCL162]

No good news... Uff

Expecting something? Me too..