Topping L30 Headphone Amplifier Review

[artburda]

 

[artburda]

Sounds very subjective to me

 

[half_dog]

I'm pretty sure I shouldn't getting into this... but, it seems more a concept debate than a semantic one. Some people say sound needs to be listenable to a human, if not it is just acoustic energy. Others say that doesn't matter and "all" acoustic energies are "sound". I don't have a exact position for myself, but thinking about the terminologies infrasound and ultrasound these mean acoustic energies with specific frequencies below or beyond our hearing capabilities. For sound pressure level we have the absolute threshold of hearing (ATH) with a sound pressure reference of 20uPa (0 dB SPL) - I don't know if there is a term for "'sounds' under ATH" as infrasound but acoustic energy bellow this is considered inaudible to average people. Albeit some people, like me (although I'm 29 years old), are able to hear a little under 0 dB SPL... I don't think this debate is so meaningful this long.

I have to practice my english writing. Sorry guys

 

[Robin L]

Long story short: If you can't hear it, what difference does it make?

 

[Veri]

Sounds very subjective to me

I don't know man, you sound just like your mother.

 

[raif71]

Insert popcorn gif

I think Jose did mention MJ

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

Sounds very subjective to me

It definitely is, once you notice the underlined parts. They specify that we are using the "sound" word relatively to human beings. Thanks for supporting my point.

I don't thing this debate is so meaningful this long.

It definitely isn't meaningful. I have asked people to just stop debating the obvious, but they won't, so...

Long story short: If you can't hear it, what difference does it make?

• We can't see atoms. What difference does it make ? A lot actually.
• We can't hear ultrasounds, and yet a focused ultrasound cannon could blow your ears without you actually hearing it.
• Did you know that low quality lossy audio can accound for auditive fatigue in the long run, even though you can barely hear the difference ? You can't really hear it consciously, but your brain has more trouble processing it, and ends up fatiguing.

The fact is, our eyes and ears are limited and there are lots of things we can't see or hear. But we can definitely feel their effects. Because differences like the one I was talking about previously do exist in the physical world. That's all I've been saying all along.

 

[solderdude]

YES ! ABSOLUTELY ! It sounds OBJECTIVELY BETTER, but SUBJECTIVELY THE SAME to most/all human beings.

Maybe only a few people can hear the difference. And maybe nobody can, that's OK too. And maybe future generations of humans will be able to hear the difference (because, evolution). The only thing that matters is that the difference exists and can currently be measured.

We shouldn't limit the use of expressions like "sounds better" only to what some people can or can not hear. That's not a proper way to use words. However if we say "sounds the same to me" or even "sounds the same to everybody" that's perfectly OK, because then we are properly linking the expression to what people can or can not hear.

All L30 modes may "sound the same to everybody", but the 0 dB mode objectively "sounds better", and maybe someday someone will be able to hear the difference. The reality is that it "sounds better". The other reality is that we may not be able to hear it currently.

So would you also say that ALL interlink cables sound different ?
That will vindicate all cable believers.

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

So would you also say that ALL interlink cables sound different ?
That will vindicate all cable believers.

First of all, a cable is a passive element, it doesn't produce anything.
A cable conveys an electrical signal, but it's not supposed to transform it / amplify it / etc.
Hence saying that cables "sound" could be a little exaggerated. But I get your point.

Cables may indeed measure differently in the physical world, that's easy to prove. But differences are so ridiculously small (and needless to say, absolutely impossible to hear) that buying an expensive cable is total nonsense. I've been saying that lots of times since I'm on ASR.

Take a look at this famous review from Amir : like he writes himself, "generic cable far better". "Far better" implies that there is indeed a difference in measurements (which nobody can hear, obviously)... in favor of the generic one.

 

[Robin L]

We can't see atoms. What difference does it make ? A lot actually.

• We can't hear ultrasounds, and yet a focused ultrasound cannon could blow your ears without you actually hearing it.
• Did you know that low quality lossy audio can accound for auditive fatigue in the long run, even though you can barely hear the difference ?

The fact is, our eyes and ears are limited and there are lots of things we can't see or hear. But we can definitely feel their effects. Because differences like the one I was talking about previously do exist in the physical world. That's all I've been saying all along.

We're talking of an audio device intended to play back music. You're attempting to win an argument with data that does not apply to the subject at hand. If you can't hear it, it doesn't make any difference. If DBTs of of low quality lossy audio reveal that people really can't hear the difference, then there isn't a difference. People come up with all sorts of stupid excuses to explain to themselves why the music doesn't sound as good as they want it to. Here's a clue, states of mind and mood have a far greater impact on quality of sound than the quality of the gear or of the recording.

Full stop. End of conversation.

 

[BDWoody]

YES ! ABSOLUTELY ! It sounds OBJECTIVELY BETTER, but SUBJECTIVELY THE SAME to most/all human beings.

Let's dial it back please. All caps and exclamation points aren't usually the way to success here...

 

[Veri]

Agreed, not to mention this whole discussion is a little.. silly. Let's just move on

 

[Jose Hidalgo]

I feel something has been misunderstood here. The time I used caps and exclamation points shouldn't be interpreted as yelling. Just as me finally reading somebody who understands my points, that's all. Sorry if anybody took them the wrong way. I wasn't yelling, merely discussing and emphasizing. Written messages can often convey the wrong impression, when the truth is that I am absolutely calm behind my keyboard, rational and sure about my claims.

And yes, the whole discussion is silly and it would never have taken place if some people didn't want to make a specific point of trying to prove me wrong for whatever reason. We can move on whenever everybody is ready to move on. No worries at all on my side, but I won't be proven wrong.

We're talking of an audio device intended to play back music. You're attempting to win an argument with data that does not apply to the subject at hand. If you can't hear it, it doesn't make any difference. If DBTs of of low quality lossy audio reveal that people really can't hear the difference, then there isn't a difference. People come up with all sorts of stupid excuses to explain to themselves why the music doesn't sound as good as they want it to. Here's a clue, states of mind and mood have a far greater impact on quality of sound than the quality of the gear or of the recording.

I just gave examples in different domains so that people could better understand what I'm talking about. They were just that : examples. And yet they're absolutely relevant in my opinion. You're not forced to like them. And I'm not trying to win an argument : the argument was won from my very first message stating the obvious. Since then I've been merely explaining why I won it. Sorry if that seems pretentious. It's not. Physical facts just happen to be on my side this time, sorry about that. Let's move on whenever possible.

 

[Benaudio]

Yes, thank you for relentlessly enlightening us. We understood that 0db mode will objectively sound better, to absolutely nobody. We will now move on

 

[Veri]

And I'm not trying to win an argument : the argument was won from my very first message stating the obvious. Since then I've been merely explaining why I won it. Sorry if that seems pretentious. It's not. Physical facts just happen to be on my side this time, sorry about that. Let's move on whenever possible.

What part of (gracefully) moving on did you not understand Jose? Dear lord. Protip, if something seems pretentious it probably is.

 

[Benaudio]

To quote Woody, explaining the expected decorum around here:

“Too many view an online forum as a place where they can treat others differently than they would in person, and let the worst of themselves out for the world to appreciate, and we hope to be different. We want your best, not your worst. This has nothing to do with how much you know, or whether or not you are right.”

 

[companyja]

To be clear, this is the type of difference we are talking about here?

Maybe there is a bit of a jump to low gain but between 0db and 9db gain, I imagine if you take enough L30 units you can find variations large enough where one unit's 9dB will perform better than another unit's 0dB gain. Also the only difference that's even being measured here is the noise floor. Either mode will hit the noise floor of the analizer before distortions even show up on the chart.

 

[solderdude]

Yes, the orange and red trace.
The -9dB trace simply requires 9dB more voltage opposite the input voltage of the 0dB gain so it appears worse.
You can see the -9dB difference over the entire chart so it is kind of misleading.

 

[gino1961]

Hello ... i have a question about the low input impedance of the L30 (2.5kohm ?).
What kind of issues i could expect from using a source with a little high impedance out like for instance a dac with a tube output (usually around 1kohm) ? does the 1/10 rule be applied (i.e. amp Zin > 10 x source Zout) ? Thanks a lot, gino

 

[solderdude]

There are no damping issues with DACs.

There could be some effects.

The most obvious one is a 3dB output level drop compared to say a 100k input R amplifier and 2.1dB compared to a 10k input R amp.
This reduces to 1.6dB in L setting.

The second one is that there is a high possibility of the tube output stage to be capacitor coupled. Depending on the used capacitor there could be some low bass roll-off.

Then at 2V output voltage of the DAC there will be a 0.5mA current draw. Should not be a problem but distortion could increase.

The question would be why buy an expensive DAC with 'flavoring' only to use it with a cheap amp that is not designed for usage with that expensive DAC.
The L30 is designed to be used with low output R sources. Best to use devices in circumstances they are designed for.