Topping G5 Review (Portable DAC & HP Amp)

[Elitzur–Vaidman]

Fortunately, iPhones will all be USB-C soon enough thanks to our friends in the EU

 

[Georgrig]

MFI certification is a joke. It's just an apple scam so they can charge manufacturers $4 per unit with their "certification." A properly made non MFI lightning cable will work identically to an MFI certified cable.

You're missing the point. It's not the cable that is MFi certified. It's the device.

Much like the NX4 before the G5 that had lightning cables available for it, future iOS updates broke the compatibility. I HAD ONE, and it stopped working on my iPhone.

Sure, Apple does this for money. But if Topping wants to claim that their device is compatible with iOS devices for good, they need that certification.

 

[srkbear]

God damn it, I've been saying the same thing many posts ago! Thank you! I'm betting Topping is NOT MFi certified..

As much as I love my iPhone and appreciate Apple’s decision to upgrade their catalogue to lossless at no extra cost to users, I still think they’re prioritizing their devices to perform best within their own product ecosystem. I suspect they have upgrades in their audio pipeline coming soon to take advantage of their lossless catalog, and to further popularize their spatial audio/Atmos masters.

That MFI certification has echoes of MQA licensing, and I have to believe that they update the MFI protocol for subsequent product cycles strategically. But historically I have still had greater respect for portable designers who play nice with Apple’s hardware rather than releasing products with faux lightning cables as an afterthought.

However, now that Apple is being forced to adopt USB-C data connections, this MFI roadblock may become a thing of the past. Perhaps Topping was being strategic as well here, and forwent the certification to keep their costs down.

Nevertheless, I still think this portable option from Topping is more of a stunt piece on their part to prove they could achieve their desktop performance in any price/segment category, rather than offering us a useable device. Again, portables to me are for fun, not critical listening—and without any EQ capabilities from Apple I can’t get past the omitted bass boost.

 

[Atanasi]

You're missing the point. It's not the cable that is MFi certified. It's the device.

Much like the NX4 before the G5 that had lightning cables available for it, future iOS updates broke the compatibility. I HAD ONE, and it stopped working on my iPhone.

Sure, Apple does this for money. But if Topping wants to claim that their device is compatible with iOS devices for good, they need that certification.

Did you use Apple's own camera adapter kit to connect the USB DAC?
I know device-specific features through companion apps cannot be implemented without the MFi certification, but I thought a few device types like audio-class, storage-class and some human interface devices (keyboards, mouses etc.) worked if the device doesn't use too much power.

 

[amirm]

However, now that Apple is being forced to adopt USB-C data connections, this MFI roadblock may become a thing of the past.

They will likely only support that for charging and raw data. They will most likely still use their authentication scheme to collect those significant royalties.

 

[Madlop26]

They will likely only support that for charging and raw data. They will most likely still use their authentication scheme to collect those significant royalties.

Absolutely, I would be surprise they do not do that, we are talking about Apple after all. Anyway I have used the proprietary camera apple connector to bypass non-MFi certified devices since.....i bought the first audioquest dongle in 2012, (only audioquest thing I have ever bought) , but now 2 of my mobile devices have their own light connectors, and still working.

 

[spartaman64]

I will take a device that begins to roll off slightly at 18kHz - a frequency that I, a person under 40 who has taken care of his ears, can barely hear and a frequency above which there is no musical content, if I'm getting essentially perfect numbers across the board in all other respects, and that goes double if I can up the sample rate and get flat response well beyond the audible range.

You're being ridiculous.

slightly better numbers that is inaudible to everyone vs a roll off that is audible to some people

 

[Digby]

The problem is that SINAD has become 'one number to rule them all'. Where you rank on the chart is incredibly important in theory/sales, but in practice not so much, beyond what 100db or so? It looks like this product has been designed to achieve the high SINAD score at the expense of other things.

How can the whole SINAD thing not be turned into a pointless arms race? How to restore balance...

 

[RT.]

Please have another look too.

Topping G5 Review (Portable DAC & HP Amp)

The engineering is superb. They have simply decided on one dac filter vs another. I clearly noted the response issue in the review with additional testing. Everything is there for you to decide otherwise. I know you’re super busy but it would be really educational to show a multitone done at...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Yes, I have seen this very slight drop of around half a db, but from my point of view I did not consider this as roll-off. But ok, fair, this is your personal view which for sure is more then respected.

 

[amirm]

The problem is that SINAD has become 'one number to rule them all'. Where you rank on the chart is incredibly important in theory/sales, but in practice not so much, beyond what 100db or so? It looks like this product has been designed to achieve the high SINAD score at the expense of other things.

There is no such thing: appearance or otherwise. For headphone/IEM listening you want ultra quiet amplifier or you will hear hiss. That part of SINAD is significant to some users. The review also shows the powerful amplifier which you absolutely can hear and use. Don't trivialize the review and then complain about trivialization you just made.

 

[whatever]

(what a waste of time & space)

yes, all thanks to you. honestly, what are you trying to prove with this statement?
someone in this thread implied im in the wrong with the weakest argument possible by appealing to normality, after seeing no chance in countering any of the points i had for him with logical argument, and if that person would dare to address me directly, i would tell him that someone being wrong is indeed normal & ok, which makes someone else pointing that out just as normal, so that's not a valid point at all.
but how about this? how about even worse? behold this: addressing me with no argument at all, even if there is, it's at best one with relevance fallacy. then what for? you repeated my point about time wasting, while being the very cause of it from the very beginning. "space", too, if you will, lol (what kind of argument is that!?). yet you went on to waste even more of them, by solely quoting me & making a statement (which, like i said, in itself is a repetition of one of my point) that adds nothing to the conversation, seemingly with no apparent purpose. what do you even want? it doesn't make any sense to me. does it to you? it must unless you enjoy being nonsense. no wonder why i find your behavior so funny. there is no better definition of time wasting than the very thing you just did! the thing is, i have long achieved my goal here, & you haven't & will not for what you're trying to prove aren't true at all. if not for your inability or unwillingness, maybe both, to comprehend what's being said, leading to you arguing with a straw man while addressing me, there would be no time wasted at the first place, just as i said. all i did was addressing you back, for what you addressed me (basically ad hominem as you simply put some words, that i later proved to be wrong if not exact opposite, out without backing it up with the 'how so', more like 'you feel so, so it is so' & want to use that to prove your point which you have none? just bad debating skills imho). and this statement you left after that just means you admitted defeat, but why not do it in a way with dignity like simply walking away? the only possible explanation would be to comfort your own ego, if i were to guess but i'd rather not. anyways, please grow up & leave it at that for your own good.

 

[Somafunk]

Apple is a joke! I’ve realized how proprietary they are.

That’s why I like them, I’ve had 6 iPhones since the og and had my iPhone X (#10) for 3 years, I like the fact they just work every time and MFI certification means I’m not going to use something that can bork my phone.

 

[whatever]

@JohnYang1997 I noticed a few people asking if the battery is removable, replaceable and the number of charge cycles possible before degradation or failure. I assume it's not removable, however it would be good for potential customers if you clarify that. A good little product though regardless of the battery query.


JSmith

there is also some questions i tried to find answers to for nx7 back in the days but wasn't able to that i want to repeat here as i saw someone asking them here about the g5:
how is the performance penalty when operating while connected to a charger, if any? how much input current is most suited for operating that way?
they may want to know because this information might be useful to those who are interested in utilizing this device as a one-for-all solution.

one more thing. since the rationale for using 9068AS instead of the likes of CS43198 or 9038Q, despite choice of filter being limited by that, seems likely to be the need to achieve the 120ish sinad that most people love to see & the fact that it can be achieved with single chip setup this way, 9038Q wouldn't make too much sense as it gives generally less performance without any real benefits except for better filter option, but single or dual CS43198 setup on the other hand, while having worse filter option compared to 9038Q & worse sinad mostly compared to 9068AS, would still make some sense in term of significantly improving battery life in theory.
of course it wouldn't make any sense from topping's point of view, as they know what their appeal is to most of their customers, and that those people would look at the sinad performance & think the product worth less despite the same amount of engineering efforts being put into it. in other words, it would sell less, and that said it all. not to mention the supply shortage of that chip.
for me personally though, sinad around 115 would be enough if it means maximized battery life. the convenience of the latter is more preferable than 120 sinad for some including me.
i don't expect it will happen due to said reasons, but im hoping topping would at least take this under consideration: releasing a g3 or something utilizing Cirrus Logic's offering (if someday in the future the supply stability allows that) with better battery life, maybe less amp power & just a little cheaper if possible. that would be really nice. (again, for me personally)

 

[audiofun]

DSD128, 256, 512 have high noise floor and reduce the SNR to only ~100dB.
Definitely below the claimed >120dB SNR.
DSD64 also has similar issue but not as bad as 128 and 256.
I tested a few Topping ESS products I have and found archimago's result to be the case for all of them.
their competitor's ESS implementation does not have such issue.

this is causing 20db worse SNR (or DR). definitely broken in my book.

If this could be fixed by firmware it would be great.

a friendly ping to both @JohnYang1997 and @amirm

 

[whatever]

i have long achieved my goal here

i take this back, i thought so but it seems like my goal will never be achieved as they start popping up again...

here we go, again:

slightly better numbers that is inaudible to everyone vs a roll off that is audible to some people

there is no vs relationship here. roll-off or not, it doesn't affect any number besides the roll-off itself (so the FR basically as a result), let alone make any 'better'.

The problem is that SINAD has become 'one number to rule them all'. Where you rank on the chart is incredibly important in theory/sales, but in practice not so much, beyond what 100db or so? It looks like this product has been designed to achieve the high SINAD score at the expense of other things.

How can the whole SINAD thing not be turned into a pointless arms race? How to restore balance...

the sinad score of this product isn't achieved at the expense of anything.

multiple people clarified these multiple times in this thread... but why would those who just pull speculation out of their arse care?
im done, seriously.

 

[Digby]

There is no such thing: appearance or otherwise. For headphone/IEM listening you want ultra quiet amplifier or you will hear hiss. That part of SINAD is significant to some users. The review also shows the powerful amplifier which you absolutely can hear and use. Don't trivialize the review and then complain about trivialization you just made.

Maybe this warrants a video explaining where people are going wrong here? It is certainly a contentious topic.

 

[SuicideSquid]

slightly better numbers that is inaudible to everyone vs a roll off that is audible to some people

"I can hear an 18kHz test tone" and "a -0.6dB rolloff at 18kHz falling to -12dB at 20kHz is audible in music playback" are completely different things. If you can find anyone who can hear this roll off when listening to music in a blind test, I'll eat my hat.

 

[Georgrig]

Did you use Apple's own camera adapter kit to connect the USB DAC?
I know device-specific features through companion apps cannot be implemented without the MFi certification, but I thought a few device types like audio-class, storage-class and some human interface devices (keyboards, mouses etc.) worked if the device doesn't use too much power.

I am aware, but this is a workaround, not a true solution. Note that I haven't tried it on the NX4. And having a chain of cables 30 cm long from phone to DAC is not exactly elegant or practical.

Either get the certification or stop luring iPhone users with lightning wires that only work for a single iOS cycle. If my G5 stops working on my phone, guess who I'm blaming..

 

[iamsms]

The problem is that SINAD has become 'one number to rule them all'.

To the lazy/impatient crowd maybe?

I really don't understand this SINAD criticism to be honest. Amir's reviews have so many other measurements - nobody is forced to read SINAD only. Look at other numbers, look at features, size, power etc. and then make your decision.

This forum is open too - people can ask what does each of these measurements mean at any given point and they will get answers from amir and other members.

 

[theREALdotnet]

Again, portables to me are for fun, not critical listening—and without any EQ capabilities from Apple I can’t get past the omitted bass boost.

iOS does actually include a choice of EQ settings, including bass boost, but only for the Music app. No PEQ, though.