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Topping G5 Review (Portable DAC & HP Amp)

Rate this DAC & HP Amp

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 11 3.0%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 20 5.5%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther)

    Votes: 75 20.5%
  • 4. Great (golfing panther)

    Votes: 259 71.0%

  • Total voters
    365

VariousArtists

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Excellent attenuation refers to the fact that filters settle to less -100 dB level, at least the two fast ones, and the slow filter is not far away. It is not a comprehensive evaluation with respect to filters’ correctness.
A filter like F1 is commonly considered acceptable even if it is not sharp enough to have strong attenuation at the Nyquist frequency.

Ah ok - thanks for clarifying that part.

This whole thread has been very confusing to me because no one raised an eyebrow when Amir called E50 "star performance" with probably the same DAC implementation except for the filter choice, lol
 

Universal Cereal Bus

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Maybe he realizes that this a product review and not an Amir review. I added the poll to solve this very issue. But folks continue to have angst over my recommendation.

You all have said your piece. Yet you continue to repeat, post nonsense about gaming measurements, bad engineering, etc. Company has offered to change the filter yet that hasn't appeased some of you. That is why I gave him a like. He has common sense that some of you don't.
The poll currently stands at 67% Great, which I personally agree with. I just don't see any justification for a rant against a small minority of complainants, nor for antagonizing them and generally supporting incivility.
 

d2k5000

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Would it be possible to have a firmware update so that people could choose which filter they want? It is a little unclear to me if the potential fix would be through a firmware update or a change at the production level. I am very tempted to order right now, but I don't want to make a purchase if another version will be implemented soon.
 

manisandher

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Topping got back to me and said the filter choice is by design. They are willing to change it if we/I ask for it. Do we want to do it?

Leave it as it is. I applaud any DAC manufacturer that attempts to attenuate the signal drastically before Nyquist... exactly as it should be done.

I think the ill-effects of imaging are underestimated by most people. The images can lead to IMD in the audio band - far worse than a roll-off above 18kHz.
 

Cars-N-Cans

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All this talk of a few teths of a dB at the top end of the audio spectrum at 44.1 kHz. Am I missing something? Does the thing not run at higher sample rates? Toppings product page imply it as such. Turn up the sample rate and in principal the filter skirt will be pushed outside the audio band, no? This is like my AE-7 sound card in that it does exactly the same thing and has some roll-off at the top of the audio band with the fast filter and 44.1 kHz sampling. Setting it to a higher sample rate reduces the impact.
 

KeithPhantom

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All this talk of a few teths of a dB at the top end of the audio spectrum at 44.1 kHz. Am I missing something? Does the thing not run at higher sample rates? Toppings product page imply it as such. Turn up the sample rate and in principal the filter skirt will be pushed outside the audio band, no? This is like my AE-7 sound card in that it does exactly the same thing and has some roll-off at the top of the audio band with the fast filter and 44.1 kHz sampling. Setting it to a higher sample rate reduces the impact.
We need to consider the 44,100 Hz performance because a lot of the content is in this sampling rate. It has the right filter for higher sampling rates, but some consider it lacking specifically at 44,100 Hz.
 

Universal Cereal Bus

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We need to consider the 44,100 Hz performance because a lot of the content is in this sampling rate. It has the right filter for higher sampling rates, but some consider it lacking specifically at 44,100 Hz.
I don't think this is correct. The sampling rate doesn't change the slight roll-off at 18 kHz. Higher sampling rates allow you to use a filter with a shallower slope without the penalty of imaging (because the image is further away from your audio band).
 

KeithPhantom

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The sampling rate doesn't change the slight roll-off at 18 kHz.
I did not quite say that. I literally confirmed what you just said:


And filter response:

Topping G5 Portable DAC and Headphone Amplifier Amp Filter  48 kHz Measurements.png



Performance is the same. So the filter selection has no impact on SINAD.
It has the right filter for higher sampling rates
Higher sampling rates allow you to use a filter with a shallower slope without the penalty of imaging (because the image is further away from your audio band).
This is the reason internal oversampling is used, due to filters being non-ideal.
 

KeithPhantom

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Does the G5 use different filters for 44k vs. 44.1k sampling?
Emm, I'm not sure if you can even have content with a sampling rate of 44,000 Hz (vs. the standard 44,100 Hz). Even if you could, I wouldn't be able to tell you exactly, but I guess the behavior would be pretty close if not the same. You can always consult the datasheet of the DAC package used for more exact information.
 

Universal Cereal Bus

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Emm, I'm not sure if you can even have content with a sampling rate of 44,000 Hz (vs. the standard 44,100 Hz). Even if you could, I wouldn't be able to tell you exactly, but I guess the behavior would be pretty close if not the same. You can always consult the datasheet of the DAC package used for more exact information.
typo-meant 48k as shown in your graph.
 

Jimster480

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All this talk of a few teths of a dB at the top end of the audio spectrum at 44.1 kHz. Am I missing something? Does the thing not run at higher sample rates? Toppings product page imply it as such. Turn up the sample rate and in principal the filter skirt will be pushed outside the audio band, no? This is like my AE-7 sound card in that it does exactly the same thing and has some roll-off at the top of the audio band with the fast filter and 44.1 kHz sampling. Setting it to a higher sample rate reduces the impact.
it should in theory, so I don't see the problem.
Anyway they could adjust the filter as they mentioned. Honestly it would be best if the filter was selectable... then everyone is happy.
 

KeithPhantom

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typo-meant 48k as shown in your graph.
Oh, the relative difference of the chosen corner frequency [Fc] (usually 20,000 Hz but it can be any other if within Fs/2) and the stop frequency will increase (stop frequency will increase from 22,050 to 24,000 Hz if keeping a constant Fc of 20,000 Hz), giving you a filter with different results (different transition band slope, thus different transition band). This is possible, but I can't confirm this is the case. Most likely, they are using a filter depending on the input sample rate by using the different registers in the package, but I can't find an extensive ESS 9068AS datasheet to confirm.
 
Last edited:

Ken Tajalli

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The poll currently stands at 67% Great, which I personally agree with. I just don't see any justification for a rant against a small minority of complainants, nor for antagonizing them and generally supporting incivility.
People who mostly came to know of this device in this very thread are voting.
They make deductions based on info supplied by review.
In my book, it makes the voting results worthless !
I only vote on stuff I have had some personal experience of, otherwise I have nothing to contribute.
My quick pure assumptions can be waaaay off.
 

Universal Cereal Bus

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Oh, the relative difference of the chosen corner frequency [Fc] (usually 20,000 Hz but it can be any other if within Fs/2) and the stop frequency will increase (stop frequency will increase from 22,050 to 24,000 Hz if keeping a constant Fc of 20,000 Hz), giving you a filter with different results (different transition band slope, thus different transition band). This is possible, but I can't confirm this is the case. Most likely, they are using a filter depending on the input sample rate by using the different registers in the package, but I can't find an extensive ESS 9068AS datasheet to confirm.
Thanks for your explanation. Since the corner frequencies in the 44.1k and 48k sampling graphs appear to be different, I'm wondering whether this is the same filter exhibiting different responses under different sampling rates, or the firmware specifically selecting different filters when the sampling rate changes.
 

whatever

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I can't tell what's more unhinged in this rant: telling people to "shut up," the interesting capitalization choices, or Amir explicitly approving of it.
telling people to shut up is hardly a sin. i have stated my reason. im aware of it being an action even with the very intention to try best to do as polite as possible would still end up being rude. but i have reason to do so as clearly stated & that's the best i can do, so i do it, simple as that. this action, however, while rude maybe, but, in fact, appropriate. the goal, ironically, was about trying to prevent some from saying more things that is actually inappropriate, unfortunately. this is, in nature, no more different than telling someone shouting in a library to shut up. maybe, just maybe, amir get the point you don't? just a little possibility, but it's a good place to start from, if you want to be able to tell what's actually unhinged.
The poll currently stands at 67% Great, which I personally agree with. I just don't see any justification for a rant against a small minority of complainants, nor for antagonizing them and generally supporting incivility.
antagonizing them? lol. did you read their writing? if anything, they're antagonized enough without anyone doing anything...
 

theREALdotnet

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For those unhappy with Amir's high rating of the G5 product, given the high frequency roll off, can I ask that they reflect on what he actually wrote:

"The only "hitch" is the slower roll off in the DAC filter. I almost knocked the overall rating lower but once I listened to the G5, I could not go there. Performance is too good to give it any score other than top of the line. You get to disagree otherwise by voting in the poll."

I’m sure everybody noticed that bit, to me it is the most unsettling part of the whole review. As far as I can see (but I certainly have not read all, or even the majority of, Amir’s reviews) this is unprecedented. An objective measurement is being overruled by a subjective and uncontrolled listening test. I had to scroll up to check for a byline like “Contributing editor: Darko” ;)

The fact that the objective measurement being cast aside here is one where the device does not exhibit SOTA performance makes the whole affair seem like grading on a curve. Otherwise, if “sounds great” was the final arbiter in ASR reviews, there should be a hell of a lot more golfing panthers.
 

whatever

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Well it seems that Topping choose a not so ideal DAC chip, as you said, but still managed to get an ideal rating in the review. Imagine if they'd choose a better DAC chip. The contest is not about best engineering given a not ideal chip, it's about the product Topping (not ESS) wants to sell.
what does what you said have anything to do with my point? i never said the contest is about engineering. im completely fine with you, or anyone else for that matter, not rating this product highly or not agreeing with amir's assessment, as long as you based your opinion on facts, not made-up nonsense. different opinion can be formed due to different points of view, preference, needs, etc. you can say you dislike this product due to the filter choice, dac chip choice all you want, i can understand that just like i can also understand the reasoning of amir's assessment (in this case, the key being inaudible, amir's recommendation was never about higher number but audibly transparent or not, back in the days sinad around 110 is about the best it could get, those device still got highest recommendation due to being almost audibly transparent, other example being some device may not have flawless jitter performance but it is inaudible enough, he wouldn't dismiss them from getting his highest recommendation just because of that, same here, all but 1 flaw & it's inaudible. i see no inconsistency, even if there is, not a problem, people can change, mood can change, with that, viewpoint changes too. the data is consistent, all that matters. you can decide how you rate it based on that, no need to make baseless claim in addition), but if your opinion is baseless, like saying things such as gaming measurements, that topping deliberately choose this filter to somehow cover up bad engineering, or 'gain sinad performance' if you prefer that, when there isn't any to gain, & that's why you don't like it? then not only does your opinion offer no value, it is outright harmful, because it is based on false assumption & misleads people into not being able to form their own opinion based on all the facts. those are the ones i was referring to, not you... uh... nvm, just checked your post record, you did exactly what i mentioned, posting 3 of such comment previously on this thread, repeatedly. you're one of those i explicitly refers to. in this case i regret typing this reply as im done with you already after my previous post, nothing more to say to you. amir put it best, you don't have common sense. maybe try solving a problem properly in real life for once, it doesn't have to be big, just try doing it properly, then you can come back & decide whether or not you want to continue this conversation.
 

MRC01

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The design fully achieves flat response to 22 kHz. DAC chip companies provide these choices because they don't know what is right either. Do you want to advocate more leakage vs flat response?
Or a bit of ripple...
The SMSL SU-6 filter #3 is fully attenuated by 22.05 (no leakage) and down only -1.5 dB @ 20 kHz. It does have about 0.05 dB of ripple, which is a small price to pay for that.
Or you can pick filter #6, perfectly flat and smooth, no ripple, but doesn't fully attenuate until 24.1 kHz. This allows *some* leakage, but only at supersonic frequencies.
Either of these is better than the filter in this Topping G5 - pick either one!
SU6-FR-Filters-3-6-zoom.png
 
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