Topping E70 randomly went to MAX volume..

[sigbergaudio]

When I first read this thread I thought it was a freak thing that happened extremely rarely, but today this actually happened to me as well (E70 Velvet). When it powered on the volume was at 0.0. Been using it daily for a few months, so it's not like it happens frequently - but it's a good idea to have a look at the display before starting to play anything on these.

 

[little-endian]

Quite unacceptable. It should be part of the basic 1x1 for any manufacturer to prevent such things from happening, given nowadays' DSP-based gain control and the implied danger of blasting outputs due to huge dynamic ranges.

So Topping should take care of that instead of mangling with the last digit of SINAD improvements.

Can't be that difficult; after all most AVR also use DSPs now to set the "volume". My good old Denon reliably starts at -40 when turned on. As far as I remember, one can set either the last used gain setting to be reused (which, depending on the source might also be critical) or a fixed (safe) value.

Out of this scope of this thread actually, but given the great performance of most DACs nowadays, I really think that Amir should focus more on reliability and features. Neither are the products tested for such bugs nor does pre-emphasis support apparently play any role despite also being a basic implementation feature which should go naturally.

 

[theREALdotnet]

Happens to me all the time, probably because my DACs are in DAC mode

I control volume in the player app (Audirvana). It will warn and ask for confirmation if I start to play with the volume up high. If I fumble the volume slider and set it very high suddenly, Audirvana will gradually increase the volume.

This is obviously not an option for people with diverse digital sources.

 

[restorer-john]

All the more reason to use a proper preamplifier, with a proper volume control.

And NO. A D/A converter is NOT a preamplifier. Never was, never will be. A preamplifier of course can be equipped with a D/A converter. I have several such pieces and they are preamplifiers first and foremost. They have multiple inputs, various gain stages, tone controls, filters, extensive signal routing options, phono preamplifiers and a D/A converter too.

 

[Sokel]

When I first read this thread I thought it was a freak thing that happened extremely rarely, but today this actually happened to me as well (E70 Velvet). When it powered on the volume was at 0.0. Been using it daily for a few months, so it's not like it happens frequently - but it's a good idea to have a look at the display before starting to play anything on these.

Lucky you didn't have the rest of the chain powered (I guess,or else you would tell the doctor,not us).

Can't say it louder that this folks,ALWAYS CHECK before turning power amps on!
Same goes for the friends with DSP x-over implementations,you never know when they will forget their settings.

 

[Burns]

A DAC is not an amplifier, it's not a preamplifier. Why are you adjusting the volume with the DAC? Your amps don't have a volume control knob? The amplifier unscrewed to 45% of the DAC even with the explosion at 100% is still 45% volume amplification. What are you up to?

I'm going to quote myself again because no one is answering this.
How are your amps set up? Do you turn them up to max volume?
Because if the E70 is to explode at 0.0dB and this corresponds to 45-50% of the amplifier's gain power, the amplifier will not explode to 100%
0.0 dB should be the maximum power of your amplifier at which you can still listen to music even if it is disco level and you should only turn the volume down below 0.0 dB
I have the impression that you start the opposite way from the quietest place not knowing the level of acceptable maximum volume for your ears from your stereo equipment.

 

[Sokel]

I'm going to quote myself again because no one is answering this.
How are your amps set up? Do you turn them up to max volume?
Because if the E70 is to explode at 0.0dB and this corresponds to 45-50% of the amplifier's gain power, the amplifier will not explode to 100%
0.0 dB should be the maximum power of your amplifier at which you can still listen to music even if it is disco level and you should only turn the volume down below 0.0 dB
I have the impression that you start the opposite way from the quietest place not knowing the level of acceptable maximum volume for your ears from your stereo equipment.

Normally power amps don't have VC,and some of them (most) don't even have gain settings.

 

[Snoopy]

I'm going to quote myself again because no one is answering this.
How are your amps set up? Do you turn them up to max volume?
Because if the E70 is to explode at 0.0dB and this corresponds to 45-50% of the amplifier's gain power, the amplifier will not explode to 100%
0.0 dB should be the maximum power of your amplifier at which you can still listen to music even if it is disco level and you should only turn the volume down below 0.0 dB
I have the impression that you start the opposite way from the quietest place not knowing the level of acceptable maximum volume for your ears from your stereo equipment.

he is not wrong in his statement that a Dac is not a pre-amplifier. Digital volume control has its benefits but there is always a risk with power amplifiers that you end up with maximum volume on both.
best way to use dacs with digital volume control (in my opinion) is in fixed volume mode (Dac mode), into a preamp. and from there into a poweramp.

and even if you set your Dac to 50% , there is always a risk of glitches.

 

[restorer-john]

I'm going to quote myself again because no one is answering this.
How are your amps set up? Do you turn them up to max volume?
Because if the E70 is to explode at 0.0dB and this corresponds to 45-50% of the amplifier's gain power, the amplifier will not explode to 100%
0.0 dB should be the maximum power of your amplifier at which you can still listen to music even if it is disco level and you should only turn the volume down below 0.0 dB
I have the impression that you start the opposite way from the quietest place not knowing the level of acceptable maximum volume for your ears from your stereo equipment.

You can quote yourself, but it doesn't help.

Nobody in their right mind sets their power amplifier gain to be full power at 0dBFS on a standalone D/A converter.

 

[RosalieTheDog]

Since this issue of the merits and demerits of digital volume keeps popping up, I made a thread to bundle suggestions for affordable preamp/headphone amp solutions between DAC and power amp. So far, no one seems to be taking the bait.

Headphone amps as preamp: what's on the market?

While the consensus seemed to be that active preamps are something of the past, given the abundance of digital sources with volume control, many on this forum have remarked that digital volume control can malfunction or glitch with damaging consequences to upstream gear or hearing (see this...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[sigbergaudio]

I'm going to quote myself again because no one is answering this.
How are your amps set up? Do you turn them up to max volume?
Because if the E70 is to explode at 0.0dB and this corresponds to 45-50% of the amplifier's gain power, the amplifier will not explode to 100%
0.0 dB should be the maximum power of your amplifier at which you can still listen to music even if it is disco level and you should only turn the volume down below 0.0 dB
I have the impression that you start the opposite way from the quietest place not knowing the level of acceptable maximum volume for your ears from your stereo equipment.

In my case it was connected to active speakers, and yes you are correct to assume that I had turned down the gain to a level where I won't be vaporized if it goes to 0dB.

But I wouldn't expect average Joe to necessarily think of that.

 

[TonyJZX]

there's a been a few threads like this... mostly topping right?

problem will be few people want ANOTHER piece of equipment in the chain potentially adding more noise

there exists a market for an invariably chinese line stage analog only preamp w/ remote and of course vol. knob. and maybe tone and loudness

and maybe some tubes you can zero out with a button (i'm kidding about that, or maybe not)

 

[Burns]

You can quote yourself, but it doesn't help.

Nobody in their right mind sets their power amplifier gain to be full power at 0dBFS on a standalone D/A converter.

I use the e70 in DAC-only mode, but if I wanted to digitally adjust the e70, I would set my amplifier just the same as in the picture. Are you talking about sanity? That's why there are entries that speakers or ears have been fried. I assume people don't think that way.

 

[Sokel]

there's a been a few threads like this... mostly topping right?

problem will be few people want ANOTHER piece of equipment in the chain potentially adding more noise

there exists a market for an invariably chinese line stage analog only preamp w/ remote and of course vol. knob. and maybe tone and loudness

and maybe some tubes you can zero out with a button (i'm kidding about that, or maybe not)

You're talking about something to brag about it's inaudible over the top measurements or an actual (way inaudible as well) reliable preamp?
Cause there's a lot around,I think Amir has measured some (not exactly cheap but decent).

 

[little-endian]

Nobody in their right mind sets their power amplifier gain to be full power at 0dBFS on a standalone D/A converter.

Well, thinking about the classical combination of a pre-amp and a power-amplifier hooked up together, the question for me arises why pre-amp developers apparently get it done properly and one better shouldn't put the same amount of trust into a DAC. To my understanding, it is the same nominal problem in case of a failure, imagining a pre-amp would suddently output at full level.

Also, the same constellation essentially one has with a modern AVR. The only thing which separates the user from driving the amp at maximum volume is the DSP-based attenuation before the DAC. So again I wonder why it is never an issue there.

 

[Sokel]

Well, thinking about the classical combination of a pre-amp and a power-amplifier hooked up together, the question for me arises why pre-amp developers apparently get it done properly and one better shouldn't put the same amount of trust into a DAC. To my understanding, it is the same nominal problem in case of a failure, imagining a pre-amp would suddently output at full level.

An nice analog pot is difficult to rotate by itself.
An even if the circuit make it to do so (same as using the remote) it will take a long time to max (even by hand,the nice pots have significant resistance,it takes time to rotate them).

 

[little-endian]

An nice analog pot is difficult to rotate by itself.

That is definitely a safety advantage by itself, however in cases of worn potentiometers, I could also imagine loud crackles or pops (which with no doubt will be way better than having music rattling at full volume). Besides that, at latest when turning on or off such a pre-amp while the power amp is running, it better be well-engineered as well to prevent any unpleasant noises.

An to quote that once more:

Nobody in their right mind sets their power amplifier gain to be full power at 0dBFS on a standalone D/A converter.

Playing partly the devil's advocate - how else would one ever make full use of the DAC's full dynamic range then? Don't we want to have 120dB at least and god forbid it maxes only to 115dB, blasting your ears or not?

 

[TonyJZX]

i think the difference is that if you have a dumb analog preamp in between there's almost no possibility (barring kids) of the vol. knob ever going to max in a split second

like right now i'm looking at my digital preamp and because I can see the screen and the range is so large "00 - 80" and you require so many spins to get it to 80 that its impossible for it to "do a topping"

I think the way these guys implement a digital vol. knob is different from the way a 'real preamp' does it... ie. mine runs an actual pot and topping runs some kind of software thing (obviously)

 

[TonyJZX]

hey here's a funny thing i noticed

i just spun it to ZERO and there was a relay click

i just ran a track thru digital in and there was a relay click before the song started

so there's something going with this pot... its a mechanical thing

obviously i'm not an E.Eng

 

[Burns]

Do you know how to restore factory settings e70 which is also written in the manual. You need to turn the knob counterclockwise in standby mode. Maybe you are invoking this function unintentionally? For example, the wife is cleaning the dust.