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Topping E50 Review (Balanced DAC)

AndyLewis

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Don't know what it is - Amirm does the measuring. However no doubt his high grade equipment accomplishes both implementations better than mine & the original poster's. Coax & Toslink are not the same processes hence their different specifications so it's quite possible the coax is done better than the toslink on mine & others (quite a few per search results on the subject).
Toslink doesn't sound the same on the 2 different machines I own either (PD7300 & denon dcd600 latter sounds dull & muffled by comparison) despite having virtually identical specs. Cheap decks like that don't even fit coax hence it supports the cheap toslink option mentioned.
There you go....
 

AndyLewis

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So what I am saying is the E50 using high grade test equipment is no doubt as close in all input performances as Amirm tested it to be - but the poster & I don't have pro grade equipment producing pro grade signals. Hence the reason for the very real likelihood of the apparent disparities between the two different types of digital implementation is the source equipment not the E50.
 

FuzzTone

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I tried to match volumes and closed my eyes while I cycled across the inputs while I tried to confuse myself on which was which. It's the best I could do. However, the issue is easily noticeable on the toslink interface. I heard it immediately after first using it. I'm not 100% sure that spdif and USB interfaces sound exactly the same as each other, but if they don't then the difference is small enough to not be easily noticeable.

I thought of a few other possible explanations I thought of since first posting. Could the toslink cable be damaged, or the connectors be dirty? Would that cause an issue such as this?
Otherwise, could there be a ground loop on the USB and spdif interfaces that actually makes the audio sound subjectively *better*? Sounds unlikely, but plausible? I'll test listening to the same CD rip on my balanced headphones setup with the E50 to rule this out.
Well in my setup the Toslink sounds as good or better.Higher quality cables for both on the way, then reassess.
 

AndyLewis

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Well in my setup the Toslink sounds as good or better.Higher quality cables for both on the way, then reassess.
At least you've got my point!
Amirms lab test signals are not our equipment!
I'll just use the better sounding coax. I don't test stuff for fun.
All this started just explaining to another guy why there may be a difference. Jesus - just relax folks....
I don't believe in snake oil, religion or bullshit of any sort...
 

sjeesjie

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Are you "blind testing" this thread?Try reading it again. No one said that.
You said it yourself….
Well actually you quoted the wizard:
“DAC which converts the optical signal back into a digital signal”
 
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decomo

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Is anyone using this not only DAC but as Preamp, too? I am trying to reduce the box count and wondering how good the preamp section it is.
I see that Topping also have dedicated Pre90 Preamp and if I have analog source then it would be good addition but if I use digital source only, then do I still benefit using dedicated Pre90 instead of one box solution like E50?

Thank you....
 
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AnalogSteph

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Is anyone using this not only DAC but as Preamp, too? I am trying to reduce the box count and wondering how good the preamp section it is.
What is the type of your power amplifier (notably its voltage gain) and speakers (notably their (actual) sensitivity)? You can do the math on where the DAC's noise floor is going to end up based on these parameters. Its output noise already beats a fair few decent analog preamps from the olden days though, as does distortion. Channel balance would not be an issue either. Generally speaking, a good DAC is the better preamp.

What you should potentially be looking out for is power-on/off pop noise, so I would wait for confirmation from owners that this is not an issue. Also, if you will be located right next to the DAC look out for a model with a physical volume knob, a few have appeared in this price class recently. A remote is a wear item, and I wouldn't want to be using it all the time.
 

decomo

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What is the type of your power amplifier (notably its voltage gain) and speakers (notably their (actual) sensitivity)? You can do the math on where the DAC's noise floor is going to end up based on these parameters. Its output noise already beats a fair few decent analog preamps from the olden days though, as does distortion. Channel balance would not be an issue either. Generally speaking, a good DAC is the better preamp.

What you should potentially be looking out for is power-on/off pop noise, so I would wait for confirmation from owners that this is not an issue. Also, if you will be located right next to the DAC look out for a model with a physical volume knob, a few have appeared in this price class recently. A remote is a wear item, and I wouldn't want to be using it all the time.

Thank you, Steph.

I am thinking to get two units for two different set ups.

Set up #1) LXMini+2 Speakers driven by NAD CI980 multichannel pwr amplifier
Not sure about speaker sensitivity (can't find it from web somehow), and CI980's spec says, Input Sensitivity: 1.1V (ref. rated power), Voltage Gain: 33dB

Set up #2) Mackie HR824MK2 Active Studio Monitors
Input Impedance: 20k Balanced, 10k Unbalanced
Sensitivity (2.83V, 1 m): 91 dB SPL
 

AndyLewis

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Is anyone using this not only DAC but as Preamp, too? I am trying to reduce the box count and wondering how good the preamp section it is.
I see that Topping also have dedicated Pre90 Preamp and if I have analog source then it would be good addition but if I use digital source only, then do I still benefit using dedicated Pre90 instead of one box solution like E50?

Thank you....
Hi -: yes after several re tests (can't do them blind before some rear ended retentive asks - as I have to change the connections myself!) using it as a pre amp sounds much better than the one in the 6000a I have into the power amp input.
This seems in line with the better specs dynamics etc of the DAC compared to the pretty good integrated's pre amp.
Using the E50 as a pre seems to give better defined bass notes as for a test on Amy Winehouse Lioness
Also fainter ambient sounds are clearer.
The 6000a loses note definition which particularly on those heavy double bass notes is easy to do!
Using the Coax of course - which also sounds clearer than the toslink output on my cd deck.
Forgot to mention also route my Wiim mini & TV via hdmi spiltter though there too - also sound better & clearer than the onboard dac of the 6000a. A bit fiddly but the better sound is well worth it.

Just my own direct experience & six ha'porth! Have fun! ; )
 
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AndyLewis

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What is the type of your power amplifier (notably its voltage gain) and speakers (notably their (actual) sensitivity)? You can do the math on where the DAC's noise floor is going to end up based on these parameters. Its output noise already beats a fair few decent analog preamps from the olden days though, as does distortion. Channel balance would not be an issue either. Generally speaking, a good DAC is the better preamp.

What you should potentially be looking out for is power-on/off pop noise, so I would wait for confirmation from owners that this is not an issue. Also, if you will be located right next to the DAC look out for a model with a physical volume knob, a few have appeared in this price class recently. A remote is a wear item, and I wouldn't want to be using it all the time.
As I mentioned below I've tried this with my 6000a in power amp mode & even with the volume therefore at full there is only the slightest click if you forget to do it in the right order as I have a couple if times (amp first then dac) - so seems very minimal in my case.

The remotes are standard for many toppings & only around $25/€ so maybe you could get a spare as a back up? Never used this firm though.....


Hopefully they'll (Topping) be designing them into uses for some time in other products yet?
; )
 

peng

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Hello, I expected the singled ended output of the E50 would be 1/2 that of the balanced output but I found that wasn't the case. It was by ears, but then I measured the output using REW and found the levels were the same. Haven't measured them with a multimeter yet. Has anyone experienced the same, whether by ears or by measurements? Thank you.
 

Toku

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Hello, I expected the singled ended output of the E50 would be 1/2 that of the balanced output but I found that wasn't the case. It was by ears, but then I measured the output using REW and found the levels were the same. Haven't measured them with a multimeter yet. Has anyone experienced the same, whether by ears or by measurements? Thank you.
The output of E50 is 2V for RCA and 4V for TRS. 2V/4V is a standard value for transmitting signals and will be at the same level in the final audio output. If you listen to it with your ears, it is of course the same level. There should be no difference. How did you measure the voltage?
 

peng

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The output of E50 is 2V for RCA and 4V for TRS. 2V/4V is a standard value for transmitting signals and will be at the same level in the final audio output. If you listen to it with your ears, it is of course the same level. There should be no difference. How did you measure the voltage?

Thank you for replying, I realize the specs say that and as I said I expected it, and actually felt silly to even ask such a question. Again, I hadn't measured the output voltages yet but I was surprised because I know my ears can tell the difference if one way is 6 dB louder lol.. I had both RCA and XLR connected to my preamp and when I switch between the inputs (preamp), I didn't hear the one with the XLR input selected louder. I guess I must have messed up something in my connections or something else, will take proper measurements time permitting. By the way, I started playing with it because of its feature that allows both single ended and balanced output to be live simultaneously as it makes AB comparing two power amps easier by using just one selector switch. I set it up to AB my buckeye amp to a HK3390 receiver the other day using the both RCA/XLR on feature.
 

yanm

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Thank you for replying, I realize the specs say that and as I said I expected it, and actually felt silly to even ask such a question. Again, I hadn't measured the output voltages yet but I was surprised because I know my ears can tell the difference if one way is 6 dB louder lol.. I had both RCA and XLR connected to my preamp and when I switch between the inputs (preamp), I didn't hear the one with the XLR input selected louder. I guess I must have messed up something in my connections or something else, will take proper measurements time permitting.
I guess that your preamp has dedicated XLR and RCA ins and converts everything to XLR and/or RCA outs. While not knowing its internal architecture, it’s likely either of the fully single-ended or fully differential type with, if needed, type conversions at either ends. Then, I could imagine that for inputs not of the same type than its internal architecture, it applies a 2x or 0.5x correction factor when converting and brings everything onto the same de facto standard line level. Then, it would follow that you don’t hear any loudness difference when switching between the two types of inputs… just my two cents.

(typos corrections and clarifications)
 
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peng

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I guess that your preamp has dedicated XLR and RCA ins and converts everything to XLR and/or RCA outs. While not knowing its internal architecture, it’s likely either of the fully single-ended or fully differential type with, if needed, type conversions at either ends. Then, I could imagine that for inputs not of the same type than its internal architecture, it applies a 2x or 0.5x correction factor when converting and brings everything onto the same de facto standard line level. Then, it would follow that you don’t hear any loudness difference when switching between the two types of inputs… just my two cents.

(typos corrections and clarifications)

Thank you for offering a possible explanation. There is a gain adjustment feature for each input but I never used them. That was the first thing I checked and indeed there were all in the default "0" position. I am going to take whatever measurements to confirm if there is a difference in the preamp output in each case and go from there.
 

peng

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I guess that your preamp has dedicated XLR and RCA ins and converts everything to XLR and/or RCA outs. While not knowing its internal architecture, it’s likely either of the fully single-ended or fully differential type with, if needed, type conversions at either ends. Then, I could imagine that for inputs not of the same type than its internal architecture, it applies a 2x or 0.5x correction factor when converting and brings everything onto the same de facto standard line level. Then, it would follow that you don’t hear any loudness difference when switching between the two types of inputs… just my two cents.

(typos corrections and clarifications)

Fyi, I did the measurements yesterday and can confirm that you are correct, that the preamp was responsible. While they both (preamp and the E50 dac) output 2X the voltage from their balanced outputs, the final output from the preamp's XLRs remained practical the same whether I selected the unbalanced or balanced inputs to the preamp or not.

There is a very slight (decimal points) difference, measurable but not audible (to me anyway). Cambridge Audio's literature said the preamp was "fully differential" but I think you are right, the internal architecture must have something to do with making sue the XLR output remain at the same level even if the unbalanced inputs (connected to the E50's unbalanced outputs) are selected.

In reading the manual, I realize the preamp does allow gain trim adjustments for each channel so I could have just use that feature to level match the two amps I am AB'ing without using the dual outputs (RCA and XLR) and variable volume. Not going to waste time now though as I have everything set up now to have the two level matched.


1658577049956.jpeg
 
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