• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Topping E50 Review (Balanced DAC)

777

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2019
Messages
486
Likes
359
There are too many stages in the power supply. First is a series diode. After that is C=470uF. After that a transistor relay and then another 470uF. Further another transistor relay and after that another100uF. After that an DC-DC swithing relay for +5v/-5v and than CLCLC post filter. That voltages will power the op-amps. From +5. will have another voltage regulator, 3.3v for es9068as. And from 3.3v will be 1.8v voltage regulator for es9068as. :facepalm: As you see, there are a lot of stages in cascade, one after another. Finally the sound is good, clean but without impact. The bass suffers the most, which is no longer short and penetrating. The chip, es9068as and the output stages are good, very good but the power supply.. is a nightmare for the sound.
 

Veri

Master Contributor
Joined
Feb 6, 2018
Messages
9,596
Likes
12,036
There are too many stages in the power supply. First is a series diode. After that is C=470uF. After that a transistor relay and then another 470uF. Further another transistor relay and after that another100uF. After that an DC-DC swithing relay for +5v/-5v and than CLCLC post filter. That voltages will power the op-amps. From +5. will have another voltage regulator, 3.3v for es9068as. And from 3.3v will be 1.8v voltage regulator for es9068as. :facepalm: As you see, there are a lot of stages in cascade, one after another. Finally the sound is good, clean but without impact. The bass suffers the most, which is no longer short and penetrating. The chip, es9068as and the output stages are good, very good but the power supply.. is a nightmare for the sound.
Uh-Huh.... :p
 

VVR

Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2023
Messages
21
Likes
30
If you get ground loop it will for sure be a problem.
Other than that we are really against science if we think we can hear differences in a DACs PSU.
Never seen any measure proof or any blind test.
That's what I was saying. My only point and recommendation was to find the best isolated power supply to avoid noise and ground loops.
BTW, anyone with E50 will have some sort of ground loop because power input and signal input are split. My test with grounded linear supply just made it more obvious in my system.
 

nikosidis

Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2022
Messages
99
Likes
106
Location
Norway
That's what I was saying. My only point and recommendation was to find the best isolated power supply to avoid noise and ground loops.
BTW, anyone with E50 will have some sort of ground loop because power input and signal input are split. My test with grounded linear supply just made it more obvious in my system.
I have used this DAC both with Balanced and Single ended connections and it is dead quiet. I just use some crappy USB charger for power. The power to my sound system is for sure grounded.
 

VVR

Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2023
Messages
21
Likes
30
I have used this DAC both with Balanced and Single ended connections and it is dead quiet. I just use some crappy USB charger for power. The power to my sound system is for sure grounded.
I agree. I also don't have any noise with power from a basic phone charger. Amir didn't mention anything special about the power as well.
My system runs long cable from a Mac several meters away from the E50. The computer and my audio are connected to AC wall outlets also few meters away. So, my loops are probably larger than the average. Still I have no audible noise with ground isolated power supply (a phone charger). I'm just pointing out that the issue is not smps vs linear, but grounded vs isolated.
 

Schlippwhip68

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Nov 28, 2020
Messages
511
Likes
198
Location
Essex, UK.
I can confirm that I was able to update the firmware for my E50 to 1.07 with my Mac Studio running macOS Ventura. Make sure you download the flashing tool for macOS and not the one for Windows. I don't have a RAR app and it works for me. Just in case, here are the files in a ZIP folder which you can simply open it with Preview.
Yes, I managed to get it sorted via an rar file app. Thanks.
 

R.Vic

Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2021
Messages
32
Likes
7
Please tell me, who has active monitors, how many decibels do you lower the volume with the DAC encoder?
I'm afraid that lowering will be too much and the dynamic range will suffer a lot. I used to have a teac-301 with the volume knob set to 9 o'clock... But it was analog.
 

enricoclaudio

Major Contributor
Audio Company
Joined
Jan 7, 2021
Messages
1,105
Likes
2,145
Location
Houston, TX - USA
I run my DACs with fixed volume (0dB) and use a pre amp, Benchmark HPA4, to control volume in the analog domain.
 

sejarzo

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 27, 2018
Messages
961
Likes
1,066
Please tell me, who has active monitors, how many decibels do you lower the volume with the DAC encoder?
I'm afraid that lowering will be too much and the dynamic range will suffer a lot. I used to have a teac-301 with the volume knob set to 9 o'clock... But it was analog.

I don't think you have to worry about that, if you take a look at the ESS presentation on digital attenuation in a 32 bit DAC that R.Vic posted above.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-digital-vs-analog-volume-control-pdf.260529/

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but if you are playing 24 bit material, a 32 bit DAC gives you 8 bits available for attenuation without degrading the data before D to A conversion, or 48 dB, and 96 dB for 16 bit material.
 

bogi

Active Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2020
Messages
238
Likes
170
Location
Slovakia
if you are playing 24 bit material, a 32 bit DAC gives you 8 bits available for attenuation without degrading the data before D to A conversion

Such formulations are related to digital domain only. No degradation on DAC output would happen if your DAC would have 32bit resolution.

When you lower digital volume, the most significant bits become zeroed and audio information of 24bit recording is shifted to lower bits. Consider DAC resolution of 20 bits and 24bit recording. All information which appears below upper 20 bits (in the lowest 12 bits) is lost under DAC noise floor. By lowering digital volume you are moving more audio information into that area. With every 6dB of attenuation you loose 1 bit of resolution. That results to lost of dynamic range and increase of noise floor.

From dynamic range and SNR point of view ideal case is no digital attenuation in DAC. It's because of limited DAC resolution. You can get closer to that ideal case by suitable choice of amplifier in relation to sensitivity of your loudspeakers or headphones.
 

sejarzo

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 27, 2018
Messages
961
Likes
1,066
Ideal, yes.

We don't know a lot about R.Vic's listening preferences...what levels he listens at, bit depth of his source material, the noise floor is in his room, does he listen to pop/rock with a limited dynamic range anyway, etc. etc. I was merely guessing that if he typically ran his volume knob at 9 o'clock that he probably doesn't listen at high levels, as no system I have ever owned played loudly with the main volume set there. If he listens at 75 dB, I don't think digital attenuation will ever create audible differences.
 

R.Vic

Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2021
Messages
32
Likes
7
I listen to all kinds of music, at low volume (about 60-65 dB spl). The room is acoustically designed and very quiet (the computer is in another room).
Even considering the ESS article I have doubts about their digital downsampling, and I'll probably look for a DAC with analog volume control...
 

staticV3

Master Contributor
Joined
Aug 29, 2019
Messages
7,537
Likes
12,004
I listen to all kinds of music, at low volume (about 60-65 dB spl). The room is acoustically designed and very quiet (the computer is in another room).
Even considering the ESS article I have doubts about their digital downsampling, and I'll probably look for a DAC with analog volume control...
The only way in which degradation from digital attenuation rears its head is in noise.

If you set up your system with a DAC that uses digital attenuation, and you set it to -40dB or something according to your system, and you actually hear noise between tracks where there wasn't any before. Then and only then do you know that the signal is degraded where it wouldn't've been had you used analog attenuation.

If there's no added noise that you can hear, even with a strong digital attenuation set in the DAC, then there's effectively no signal loss that analog attenuation would've otherwise preserved.

Because in that scenario, the signal loss that's there, is simply masked by the background noise of your environment and that of your ears.

You can also think of it this way:
Even a well designed, quiet room will have a noise floor of about 10dB SPL. If you're listening at 60dB AVG -> 75-80dB Peak, then that only gives you 70dB of acoustic dynamic range anyway. With modern DACs that have about 125dB DR, that means you can reduce volume digitally by more than 50dB and still have higher dynamic range on the output, than what your listening environment is even able to resolve.
 
Last edited:

R.Vic

Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2021
Messages
32
Likes
7
It's just that I already encountered a similar problem with the Steinberg UR28m audio card, which also has a digital encoder, and when music is not playing I hear a little white noise from the monitors, as they are close. With the Teac 301 this noise didn't happen. Of course the Topping has a better signal-to-noise ratio, but still I'm not sure if I need such a DAC.
 

staticV3

Master Contributor
Joined
Aug 29, 2019
Messages
7,537
Likes
12,004
It's just that I already encountered a similar problem with the Steinberg UR28m audio card, which also has a digital encoder, and when music is not playing I hear a little white noise from the monitors
Just as an example, the Topping E30 II has 30% as much noise on its Line out as the UR28m.

but still I'm not sure if I need such a DAC.
I'm definitely not trying to convince you to buy a new DAC. If you have a system that you're happy with and there's no noise, then a new DAC is one of the worse investments that you can make.
 

inu912

Member
Joined
May 11, 2020
Messages
6
Likes
0
It's stated in the E50 manual that dac mode sets the volume to fixed 0 db. Does that mean there's no difference in how the dac runs when running in dac mode vs pre-amp mode volume set to 0db?
 
Last edited:

sejarzo

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 27, 2018
Messages
961
Likes
1,066
Here's the description of the output level knob on the UR28m.

1675866041382.png


It certainly seems to me that the output level control in the UR28m is an entirely separate stage downstream of the D/A chip, unlike the digital volume control incorporated in a modern chip in a 2 channel DAC.
 

Jose Teixeira

New Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2023
Messages
2
Likes
0
Hi,
I've been looking to buy the Topping E50 (1xES9068AS) for a while. About 200€ at this moment.
Now i see the new SMSL DO100 with 2x ES9038Q2M, 4x high-end dual op amp OPA1612 and with an internal power supply at 250€.
Good reviews for this one too.
Should i still buy the E50 because a better chip dispate only one or go with the DO100?
Thanks
 

staticV3

Master Contributor
Joined
Aug 29, 2019
Messages
7,537
Likes
12,004
@Jose Teixeira I works buy the SMSL D-6. It sounds the same as the E50, has both RCA and TRS Bal outputs like the E50, plus Bluetooth input, and costs 30€ less at 170€.
Not to mention an integrated power supply, so you don't have an external brick laying around somewhere.
 
Top Bottom