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Topping E50 Review (Balanced DAC)

Toku

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@Toku should this one work?

This product extracts only the audio signal from the HDMI output and outputs the S/PDIF signal.
However, if the audio signal output to HDMI contains information such as Dolby or 5.1ch instead of pure 2ch stereo, I think the E50 cannot receive the signal. If it is an AV amplifier that handles such signals, it can be connected.
 

half_dog

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This product extracts only the audio signal from the HDMI output and outputs the S/PDIF signal.
However, if the audio signal output to HDMI contains information such as Dolby or 5.1ch instead of pure 2ch stereo, I think the E50 cannot receive the signal. If it is an AV amplifier that handles such signals, it can be connected.
It seems to be able to down mix the signal to 2.0. You can select if it will pass-through the original format (just extract) or down mix as well. I can't confirm if it would be converted to PCM...
 

Toku

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It seems to be able to down mix the signal to 2.0. You can select if it will pass-through the original format (just extract) or down mix as well. I can't confirm if it would be converted to PCM...
I have read the explanations many times, but I can't understand the contents of the operation explanations. There seems to be no other way but to actually use it and check it.
 

visekop

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I investigated the function of this product, but it is only the conversion function to OPT >> COAX, COAX >> OPT
Yes, it doesn't work - the sound is similarly interrupted and clicks.
Finally, I connected the E50 to the optical output of the PC sound card and the sound was perfect!
This is the finish line - complete incompatibility with LG via TOSLink.
I have checked all possible settings on LG TV. the result is the same.
At the same time, all the other sound equipment at my house works perfectly with the LG TV optics... Sadness
 
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Toku

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Yes, it doesn't work - the sound is similarly interrupted and clicks.
Finally, I connected the E50 to the optical output of the PC sound card and the sound was perfect!
This is the finish line - complete incompatibility with LG via TOSLink.
I have checked all possible settings on LG TV. the result is the same.
At the same time, all the other sound equipment at my house works perfectly with the LG TV optics... Sadness
You may be dissatisfied with this ending. However, this experience becomes knowledge and remains for you.
Topping's S/PDIF may be set more strictly than general ones for the pursuit of sound quality.
 

Aldoszx

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Which is VERY annoying. Can not get it to operate correct and consistently with a raspberry streamer. Can not recall having the issue of not correctly waking up with an E30 .

Edit: I get the idea roon behaves better with it and my streamer. Might be that the issue is with current picoreplayer or squeezelite version.
I am using Roon + RPi streamer and the problems are there.
Like I said before, when I am trying to start playing with E50 in stand by, the first thing is that Roon loses conection to DAC. It disapears for a few seconds from zone list and after it appears again I can start playing music.
 

Mat

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Can anyone comment on the volume control on this - does it degrade or affect sound quality in any way to push it down rather low only to reamplify it? Or is it completely fine at any decibel level?
 

gvl

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Can anyone comment on the volume control on this - does it degrade or affect sound quality in any way to push it down rather low only to reamplify it? Or is it completely fine at any decibel level?

Given your amp has enough gain for your application It’s better than most active volume control solutions you can add downstream of the DAC.
 
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visekop

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Can anyone comment
I didn't detect any noise or interference when using the E50 in preamp mode. At any volume level, everything is fine. I listen in the next setups: E50/PA5 or E50/Rotel RB1582mkii + Heco Celan GT302 or Elac BS 403
 
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Mat

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Given your amp has enough gain for your application It’s better than most active volume control solutions you can add downstream of the DAC.

Ok good to know. The amp has plenty of power, with headphones I can't go much more than 1/10 volume in DAC mode, so wasn't sure if dropping excessively would have a consequence, like lowering source volume

I didn't detect any noise or interference when using the E50 in preamp mode. At any volume level, everything is fine. I listen in the next setups: E50/PA5 or E50/Rotel RB1582mkii + Heco Celan GT302 or Elac BS 403

I meant more like compression or a gradual loss of fidelity fwiw, but if its fine on the rotel then good to know
 
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escalibur

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Ordered E50 for my A90 today. I hope they will work well together. :)

E50 because I want to use A90 with XLR and Burson FUNK with RCA.
 

da_vetz

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@JohnYang1997

Given this has 5VDC in, does this mean I can use a "data only" USB cable and avoid PC based power noise... or does the DAC need to see the USB 5VDC to "wake up"

Thanks,

Peter
Hi Peter,
I was wondering the same thing. So I just got my E50 today and it didn't work when connected to USB only. I thought that it would based on what I read. So I had to plug in the 5V input to make it work.

So to answer your question, no you cannot use the USB only. Which makes sense since we want to avoid the noisy USB power and focus on a cleaner 5V input.
 

Nonick

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Question for the E50 owners. E50 and PA5 arrived today. I'm using TRS balanced output from E50 > PA5.
TRS plugs in PA5 plug in "all the way".
When i plug in TRS jack in E50 - the plug goes all the way and then it "pops" out cca 2mm (like there is a spring on the end that bounces it back).
1. E50 owners - does your TRS plug fit "all the way" or same as this?
1644588610038.png


2. What's your volume on E50 while connected to PA5?
I've set PA5 volume to max. Topping E50 is cca -30 dB for normal listening volume, -10 dB is loud.
 

kchap

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Question for the E50 owners. E50 and PA5 arrived today. I'm using TRS balanced output from E50 > PA5.
TRS plugs in PA5 plug in "all the way".
When i plug in TRS jack in E50 - the plug goes all the way and then it "pops" out cca 2mm (like there is a spring on the end that bounces it back).
1. E50 owners - does your TRS plug fit "all the way" or same as this?
View attachment 185872
On question 1, that seems to be normal manufacturing tolerances. The socket has a spring detent which will lock into the narrow bit of the tip. If the the connector is inserted to a point close to the correct position the tension from the detent will cause the connector rest so the narrowest part of the tip is aligned with the detent.
 

bogi

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Can anyone comment on the volume control on this - does it degrade or affect sound quality in any way to push it down rather low only to reamplify it? Or is it completely fine at any decibel level?
Lowering digital volume in some lower range (say to -12 dB) does not lead to audio quality loss considering that resolution of current DACs is about 20 bits. But one has to know that every 6dB of lowering leads to 1 bit of digital resolution loss and thus also dynamic range and S/N ratio loss.

If you lower by 12 dB with 16bit recording, you lose 2 lowest bits of those 20 which were not part of 16bit recording. With 24bit recording you already lose valid bits of recording, but since 20 - 2 = 18bits still mean 108 dB of dynamic range, on usual listening volume levels it does not mean real loss.

Other situation comes when you lower digital volume significantly, for example to -48 dB. Then you lost 8 bits of resolution and that can be considered as audible loss on dynamics and low level detail. A setup requiring strong digital attenuation because of too strong amplifier is not suitable from S/N ratio view. Power of your amplifier should better fit your listening environment.
 
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kchap

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Is the E50 not 24 bit?
Yes it is but, like any high resolution DAC linearity and various other sources of noise and distortion will limit the dynamic range. Go to the first page of this thread and you will see the the DR is between 20 and 22 bits.
 

yanm

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Can anyone comment on the volume control on this - does it degrade or affect sound quality in any way to push it down rather low only to reamplify it? Or is it completely fine at any decibel level?
From my point of view it is totally fine to control volume with my E50 at any volume settings. For example, I am most often in the -30 to -40 dB volume setting.

As others pointed out, the E50 volume control is done in the DAC. The digital part of these kind of circuits are internally working at higher resolution than 24-bit, typically 32-bit or higher. From a digital perspective, it means that you're not really losing any bit with respect to 24-bit when controlling volume. So you shouldn't worry about losing bits.

Of course, it is more complicated than that :)

The main difference between analog and digital volume controls, is their effect on the noise floor. To put it simply, the noise floor stays the same with digital volume control - irrespective of the volume settings. In other words, the signal-to-noise ratio (SNR) is decreasing as the volume is turned down. On the other hand, the noise floor goes down with (good) analog volume control: the SNR is staying the same or, at least, deteriorating less than with digital volume control. For that reason, many people tend to prefer to have a preamp with analog volume control after their DAC. Please refer to this old ESS presentation: Digital vs. Analog Volume Controls.

Still, I argue that in my case the E50 digital volume control is fully transparent. The reason is the very low noise floor of the E50 to start with: it is specified at 2.3 uV (or -112 dBV) for the differential output. Let's do some back of the envelope calculations: my amplifier gain is 17 dB. As the E50 is directly connected to the power amp, no preamp, it means that the E50 produces -95 dBV of noise at the speakers' terminals. Now, my speaker sensitivity is specified at 89 dB SPL for 2.83V input at 1m. In other words, the E50 produces -95 - 9 + 89 = -15 dB SPL at 1m (the -9 corresponds to 2.83V converted in dBV). As 0 dB SPL is considered the threshold for normal human hearing, the E50 is transparent in my setup. Some readings: ASR thresholds, speaker and amplifier calculations.

There is more to it, the amplifier also produces noise, there are usually two channels or more, and noise contributions pile up, so one wants to minimise individual one. If you want to use the digital volume control of your DAC and ensure that it is up to the game, I've seen this simple test. Connect your DAC to the amplifier, set the DAC to a safe volume e.g, -20dB and possibly the volume of the amplifier to maximum if that can be set (as per my above explanation, you don't need to set the volume of the DAC to the maximum as the noise floor stays the same irrespective of digital volume settings). IN CASE YOU SET THE DAC VOLUME TO 0DB, DON'T PLAY ANYTHING AND ENSURE THAT PLAY CANNOT START ACCIDENTALLY (IT MAY DESTROY YOUR SPEAKER AND/OR HEARING). Now, with nothing playing and in a quiet room put your ear next to the speaker's tweeter. Do you hear anything? If not, your setup is transparent (w.r.t. noise) and you can happily use your DAC volume control. Do you hear something? Fear not, and sit at your usual listening position. Do you hear anything? If not (very likely), your setup is transparent at your listening position and you can happily use the digital volume control of your DAC.

Some caveats:
  1. Some DACs (not sure about the E50) have an auto-mute function when nothing is playing, and what you may hear is not representative of the DAC noise floor (also it may produce a very loud PLONG sound when engaging, so be careful and experiment first).
  2. Many amplifiers have a higher noise floor than that of the DAC, in which case the DAC is fully transparent relative to the amplifier but the simple test I explained before does not apply.

Hope, it helps!
 
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bogi

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Still, I argue that in my case the E50 digital volume control is fully transparent.
You are still overlooking SNR loss by significant digital attenuation.

Think about what happens if you lose 1 bit of resolution. It means you lost 1/2 of all possible digital sample levels. When you lose 2nd bit your recording will be coded only by 1/4 of originally available sample value set. With 3rd lost bit it is 1/8 and so on.

Lets count that for -48 dB, 24 bit recording and DAC resolution of 20 bits. Assume that recording is mastered up to 0 dB (that's unfortunately often the reality). It means 2^20 values = 1048576 available values for digital samples. When you lower digital volume to -48 dB, you lose upper bits 8 bits out of 16 (you can roughly imagine it like shifting bits to right, although it is only an estimate view since 1 bit is not exactly 6dB). What remains within DAC resolution (I will assume 20 bits) are bits 9 to 20, together 13. That's 2^13 = 8192 values instead of the original 1048576. Simply said you get much less digital values to encode the same audio content. Therefore that encoding will be less precise and of course S/N ratio is significantly lower.

The 20 to 22 bits measured DAC dynamic range is reality and existence of lower bits than 20th or 22th and even computing volume in higher resolution math than 32 bits does not change anything on the final result. You can perform digital volume level computing on any high precision but when the following delta sigma modulator + D/A stage does not bring higher dynamic range than those 120 to 132 dB then the lowest bits, which are part of your thought computing, are simply lost below DAC noise floor, so their existence doesn't matter and has no effect on analog output.

You cannot increase DAC dynamic range by using more precise digital volume processing. You can count any number of lower bits in digital domain but when they are lost below noise floor they don't influence the analog result.

Higher precision math for volume control is used to compute enough precise final computing result. Digital volume processing means an algorithm consisting of series of arithmetic operations. Each operation may be subject of rounding error and that error raises with number of operations performed. Therefore it is usual that DSP is computed at higher resolution than the resolution of audio data processed so then the rounding error does not affect the input data range (for example 32 bits). That's the only reason of using higher resolution math for DSP.
 
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yanm

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You are still overlooking SNR loss by significant digital attenuation.

Think about what happens if you lose 1 bit of resolution. It means you lost 1/2 of all possible digital sample levels. When you lose 2nd bit your recording will be coded only by 1/4 of originally available sample value set. With 3rd lost bit it is 1/8 and so on.

Lets count that for -48 dB, 24 bit recording and DAC resolution of 20 bits. Assume that recording is mastered up to 0 dB (that's unfortunately often the reality). It means 2^20 values = 1048576 available values for digital samples. When you lower digital volume to -48 dB, you lose upper bits 8 bits out of 16 (you can roughly imagine it like shifting bits to right, although it is only an estimate view since 1 bit is not exactly 6dB). What remains within DAC resolution (I will assume 20 bits) are bits 9 to 20, together 13. That's 2^13 = 8192 values instead of the original 1048576. Simply said you get much less digital values to encode the same audio content. Therefore that encoding will be less precise and of course S/N ratio is significantly lower.

The 20 to 22 bits measured DAC dynamic range is reality and existence of lower bits than 20th or 22th and even computing volume in higher resolution math than 32 bits does not change anything on the final result. You can perform digital volume level computing on any high precision but when the following delta sigma modulator + D/A stage does not bring higher dynamic range than those 120 to 132 dB then the lowest bits, which are part of your thought computing, are simply lost below DAC noise floor, so their existence doesn't matter and has no effect on analog output.

You cannot increase DAC dynamic range by using more precise digital volume processing. You can count any number of lower bits in digital domain but when they are lost below noise floor they don't influence the analog result.

Higher precision math for volume control is used to compute enough precise final computing result. Digital volume processing means an algorithm consisting of series of arithmetic operations. Each operation may be subject of rounding error and that error raises with number of operations performed. Therefore it is usual that DSP is computed at higher resolution than the resolution of audio data processed so then the rounding error does not affect the input data range (for example 32 bits). That's the only reason of using higher resolution math for DSP.

You're correct but if you read carefully my post, you will see that I've never claimed that the dynamic range is increased. On the contrary, I wrote that SNR is getting worst with digital volume control - which is equivalent to say that dynamic range is lost. Then, I demonstrated that -in my setup- it does not matter because what is lost is anyway way below hearing threshold.

Let me do the same back-of-the-envelope calculations but from a dynamic range perspective. To recap, my amplifier has a 17 dB gain, my speaker are 89 dB SPL at 1 m for 2.83 V. Now, ASR measured the dynamic range of the E50 at 122 dB relative to full-scale. The full-scale for the E50 is about 4 V (that is, 12 dBV). So the full-scale output of my system is 12 + 17 - 9 + 89 = 109 dB SPL at 1 m (which is pretty loud in my book but still somewhat reasonable). Now, based on the dynamic range (from a DAC-limited perspective) we thus have 109 - 122 = -13 dB SPL as the lowest resolvable 'meaningful' sound that my system can produce (by meaningful, I mean above noise level)... pretty close to what I calculated earlier and still totally inaudible. By the way, 122 dB corresponds to about 21-bit ENOB and if you look at all other relevant DAC metrics, the E50 scores always around the 21-bit mark.

What happens if you use digital volume control? Well, this -13 dB SPL figure stays the same but, on the other hand, the 109 dB SPL one is reduced. For example, if I use my usual -35 dB volume settings, my maximum SPL is 74 dB and the dynamic range is thus 74 - -13 = 87 dB. Yes, it has worsened BUT it does not matter as -13 dB is still 13 dB below audibility threshold.

Now, let's use an ideal analogue volume control. In the same example as above, the maximum SPL would still be 74 dB but as the dynamic ideally stayed at 122 dB, we have now -48 dB SPL as the noise floor. Much better than with digital volume control but we are now 48 dB below audibility threshold, which does not improve sound quality w.r.t. being 13 dB below that same threshold.

So, yes from a pure number perspective it was better to use analog volume control but there is no audible concern whatsoever to use digital volume control in this case. Think of it this way: in both cases, we have an audible dynamic range of 74 dB (i.e., compared to 0 dB SPL). There are reasons why some of the thresholds in ASR thresholds are slanted.

There are however cases where using digital volume control can be 'problematic' though. For example, let's assume I was using the E50 connected to the same amplifier but with a highly efficient loudspeaker, say 110 dB SPL at 1 m for 2.83 V. The full-scale output of that system is 12 + 17 - 9 + 110 = 130 dB SPL at 1 m (way too loud for home usage I would say). Now, the lowest resolvable 'meaningful' sound this system can produce is 130 - 122 = 8 dB SPL, which is above the 0 dB SPL audibility threshold. This system is not transparent. To listen at the same typical SPL level, I would have to set the E50 to -61 dB. The dynamic range is then limited to the 74 - 8 = 66 dB. Using analog volume control in that case would be beneficial and increase the theoretically audible dynamic range by 8 dB (that is 74 instead of 66 dB). In that case, were I to decrease the gain of my amplifier to 9.2 dB (the lowest settings of Benchmark's AHB2), I would move the DAC noise floor from 8 down to 0.2 dB SPL. This is close to transparency but because of other sources of noise, I may prefer higher margin and would possibly use analog gain control in that case...

In conclusion, digital volume control can be as audibly transparent as analogue volume control. It however does not only depends on the DAC but rather on the full system. The amount of digital attenuation is only relevant in so far that high digital attenuation followed by high analogue gain (be it amplifier or loudspeaker sensitivity) may be detrimental as the high analogue gain may push the noise floor of the DAC in the audibility range.

I would argue that your last paragraph is the domain of philosophy. In digital signal processing, higher bit depth equates less roundoff errors but also higher resolution - you would use one term or the other depending on the context...

(edited some typos)
 
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