Topping E30 DAC Review

[Pimmsley]

Why do you think the effects are very audible in my setup? Its not the greatest but I like to think the speakers are more than decent (Dynaudio, which are also used in Studios). One thing I can think about is my living room is very small (condo) and the room gain greatly amplifies the effect. I feel that the most noticeable change is using dynamic and bass-heavy songs where dynamics are required for the woofer to work on. I recorded it here:
My video clip

Short answer, I don't know, but without a true blindfold test are you absolutely certain beyond doubt you hear a difference ?
I'll check out your clip, .. Dynaudio's are usually a cut above (the ones I've heard in person), do have a history in studios and a great reputation so you are sure to have an excellent source to reference...

another thing to consider as an experiment in if polarity change is audible is to take a small crappy speaker like the one's that used to be found inside cheap portable AM radios (the small black ones) and flip the speaker wires and measure its response... if any speaker is going to reveal a difference in sound with inverted polarity, a cheap sub $3 speaker with limited frequency response and a primitive voice coil/magnet would right ?
So why doesn't it ? It's respomse will be uniform regardless of the polarity of the source fed to it...Surely a less capable speaker would stuggle more to be consistant in the negative phase of the waveform if that was so, but it doesn't, it stuggles equally to reproduce sound in both directions... the better quality speaker is more capable at producing a greater range of frequencies, at the same volume with lower distortion.

 

[facboy]

maybe the L30 should have a polarity switch

 

[facboy]

<snip>

Success!

This was under Linux, 'cuz my E30 is hooked up to a Raspberry Pi3B+ streamer. Should work just the same under Macos, but I make no promises.

This is great work.

 

[mykeldg]

@JohnYang1997 can you confirm that I can override the 1.08 firmware to 1.07 without any bad effects? I just want to roll-back the update and just switch my speaker cables and be done with it.

I also noticed you added in the instructions that the topping driver is needed for the 1.08 firmware to work. Does this mean if I uninstall the topping driver, the polarity reversal would not take effect and I can keep the 1.08 firmware?

Thanks

 

[Toku]

FWIW, i hear no difference after the upgrade.

I think the difference in sounds you feel is correct.

I have two E30s. One is the one I purchased the first with a DSD 2.8 problem and the other is the improved E30 from Topping. Ver is 1.07 for both units. I updated one E30 to Ver1.08 and compared the sounds with speaker playback, but I could not feel a clear difference. However, I understand that there is a problem as a comparison method because the USB connection cannot be switched instantly.

This is my argument.
I don't think there should be a difference in sound even if the polarity is reversed. If the timbre is different between the positive and negative sine waves, it is strange. If you still feel the difference, I think the cause is the connected mechanical vibration system. If it is a good quality SP unit, it will be reproduced faithfully regardless of polarity within the range of X-max (the moving distance of the voice coil).

 

[samsa]

@JohnYang1997 can you confirm that I can override the 1.08 firmware to 1.07 without any bad effects? I just want to roll-back the update and just switch my speaker cables and be done with it.

I also noticed you added in the instructions that the topping driver is needed for the 1.08 firmware to work. Does this mean if I uninstall the topping driver, the polarity reversal would not take effect and I can keep the 1.08 firmware?

Thanks

In my (admittely limited) testing, you can write any firmware image you want. Order doesn't matter (i.e, an "older" firmware image can overwrite a newer one).

As to drivers, this is (as far as I can tell) a red herring. For Windows, you need a special set of USB drivers installed to access the E30 over USB. For Linux, it just uses the standard Linux drivers (accessed via libusb). On Macos, the commandine tool uses a dynamically-linked version of libusb (presumably borrowed from Linux).

 

[mykeldg]

Even iiWi Reviews (popular Youtube reviewer of Audio gear who has all high praises for the E30 in his review) heard the difference on his LS50. Maybe if the listening device is not resolving enough, you wont notice the difference?

 

[hyperplanar]

Yes I was wondering as well why the effects are more than subtle on mine. The speakers are Dynaudio X18, amp is Onkyo 9150, its quite a revealing speaker and I would think its decent enough not to have any design anomalies. The songs I selected are dynamic ones with lots of instruments & dynamics which can work the woofer more. In the blind test posted earlier of one acoustic guitar, I could also not hear the difference.

I could prepare an audio file in Logic with some song snippets of your choosing, played once in normal polarity and once inverted. This would eliminate any other potential sources of error (level matching, EQ in different sources, etc) and we can see if it's indeed simply the polarity inversion that is leading to the difference in the bass. I don't doubt that absolute polarity differences are audible under certain circumstances, but it would only make sense to hear differences in transients and the timbre of asymmetrical waveforms, not a loudness difference in sustained bass notes. So I think something else may be afoot. What do you think?

 

[samsa]

Even iiWi Reviews (popular Youtube reviewer of Audio gear who has all high praises for the E30 in his review) heard the difference on his LS50. Maybe if the listening device is not resolving enough, you wont notice the difference?
View attachment 64761

1. Rather than switching the wires on your speakers, invert the signal in the digital domain. In Roon (for instance), that's under the "Speaker Setup" DSP filter. That way, you can switch back and forth with a mouse click. Or, even better, you can ask a friend to switch for you, and see if you can ABX the difference.
2. Evidently, I need to replace the insufficiently-resolving Hypex NCore amplifier driving my LS50s. Any suggestions?

 

[mykeldg]

I could prepare an audio file in Logic with some song snippets of your choosing, played once in normal polarity and once inverted. This would eliminate any other potential sources of error (level matching, EQ in different sources, etc) and we can see if it's indeed simply the polarity inversion that is leading to the difference in the bass. I don't doubt that absolute polarity differences are audible under certain circumstances, but it would only make sense to hear differences in transients and the timbre of asymmetrical waveforms, not a loudness difference in sustained bass notes. So I think something else may be afoot. What do you think?

Sounds nice but But doesn't that take the speakers out of the equation? i'm afraid, it would be irrelevant for my use-case.

 

[hyperplanar]

Sounds nice but But doesn't that take the speakers out of the equation? i'm afraid, it would be irrelevant for my use-case.

Not at all, you can play the audio file through the same setup you're using now. So you can see if the absolute polarity on its own is causing the sonic difference, or if there's something else amiss.

 

[mykeldg]

1. Rather than switching the wires on your speakers, invert the signal in the digital domain. In Roon (for instance), that's under the "Speaker Setup" DSP filter. That way, you can switch back and forth with a mouse click. Or, even better, you can ask a friend to switch for you, and see if you can ABX the difference.
2. Evidently, I need to replace the insufficiently-resolving Hypex NCore amplifier driving my LS50s. Any suggestions?

both should electrically/ fundamentally be the same thing as switching cables though.

1. Evidently, I need to replace the insufficiently-resolving Hypex NCore amplifier driving my LS50s. Any suggestions?

Its nice that you dont hear a difference. I wish I didn't as well. I did my own experiment though, recorded it and shared it to everyone here--- and the change can be heard from a lossy recorder, lossy youtube compression, room gain, headphone coloration and many other factors. Why do you think my setup and his are getting better fuller sound using the positive polarity from both personal listening and phone camera recording? I am just reacting based on actual listening of my own setup BTW.

 

[mykeldg]

Not at all, you can play the audio file through the same setup you're using now. So you can see if the absolute polarity on its own is causing the sonic difference, or if there's something else amiss.

that would be interesting if it is not much trouble. the songs I used were:

 

[Tup3x]

I think the difference in sounds you feel is correct.

I have two E30s. One is the one I purchased the first with a DSD 2.8 problem and the other is the improved E30 from Topping. Ver is 1.07 for both units. I updated one E30 to Ver1.08 and compared the sounds with speaker playback, but I could not feel a clear difference. However, I understand that there is a problem as a comparison method because the USB connection cannot be switched instantly.

This is my argument.
I don't think there should be a difference in sound even if the polarity is reversed. If the timbre is different between the positive and negative sine waves, it is strange. If you still feel the difference, I think the cause is the connected mechanical vibration system. If it is a good quality SP unit, it will be reproduced faithfully regardless of polarity within the range of X-max (the moving distance of the voice coil).

I think there could be difference since many seem to be able to identify it with rather compelling evidence. That being said, not sure if that would be the case in actual use outside of test tones and hand picked samples.

Still, I think the DAC shouldn't change the polarity on its own. I think that's a "flaw" or at least very weird design choice since it's not outputting what you are expecting.

And, well, there's the psychological thing... Which may make you think that everything sounds worse (since now people know that some inputs have reversed polarity).

 

[hyperplanar]

that would be interesting if it is not much trouble. the songs I used were:
View attachment 64765

Not at all! The audible difference in your video was intriguing.

Okay, so I've gone ahead and gotten a 4-bar sample from Jack of Speed, and looped it a few times. Here is the download link. It's a 24-bit 44.1kHz FLAC, converted from the Tidal master and properly dithered.

• The first time it plays, it's in its original polarity.
• The second time is in inverted polarity.
• It plays ten more times. I chose by coin flip each time whether it would be in original or inverted polarity.

So, in theory, if it's indeed the polarity difference causing the change in sound, then the second time the loop plays should sound exactly like how it did before the DAC update. Would be interested in seeing if you can suss out which is which in the last ten loops, I'll show the answer in a bit!

 

[mykeldg]

Not at all! The audible difference in your video was intriguing.

Okay, so I've gone ahead and gotten a 4-bar sample from Jack of Speed, and looped it a few times. Here is the download link. It's a 24-bit 44.1kHz FLAC, converted from the Tidal master and properly dithered.

• The first time it plays, it's in its original polarity.
• The second time is in inverted polarity.
• It plays ten more times. I chose by coin flip each time whether it would be in original or inverted polarity.

So, in theory, if it's indeed the polarity difference causing the change in sound, then the second time the loop plays should sound exactly like how it did before the DAC update. Would be interested in seeing if you can suss out which is which in the last ten loops, I'll show the answer in a bit!

superb thanks! i'll play it in my system and record it as well continuously without any cuts once i get the chance later tonight. would be an interesting blind test.

 

[Pimmsley]

Why do you think the effects are very audible in my setup? Its not the greatest but I like to think the speakers are more than decent (Dynaudio, which are also used in Studios). One thing I can think about is my living room is very small (condo) and the room gain greatly amplifies the effect. I feel that the most noticeable change is using dynamic and bass-heavy songs where dynamics are required for the woofer to work on. I recorded it here:
My video clip

I checked out the video but the problem is you mentioned the recordings are a week apart and you tried replicating as close a possible the same conditions but without ensuring exactly the same mic placement (identical) and identcal spl/volume of the source the response characteristics of the mic can make a huge difference... 1-2dB and 3 degrees off axis is enough to exhibit the sound change you can hear... a better test would be the same setup and switch between usb and optical with the same track if you could... that would ensure no change in th the mic placement or output level, and you could check the output level with an spl meter phone app to be sure that the usb and optical are the same level.
Better still the standard and inverted files discussed above will do the trick as you already mentioned
Can't wait to see what you hear.

 

[conuss]

the insufficiently-resolving Hypex NCore amplifier

Not in the subject, but, I can not help but say that now I am waiting for such a power amplifier to a large extent because of the sufficient resolution for E30 pre amp DAC mode...

 

[AndyLu]

those stats seemed a bit off to me. but you're right, i shall butt out. i agree that it should be 'relatively' easy to get access to a Windows machine that can do the update, it does literally take 2 or 3 minutes.

Sorry for going off topic.

My original figures where from a year ago.
Here a link to a site with more recent figures:

Operating system market share world wide

Seems Windows is now around 88% and Mac around 9%.
But give or take a few %, this hasn't change much around the last 10 years. It has always been around 90/10

 

[samsa]

Just an electrical sidenote to @mykeldg. In practice, swapping speaker wires should be the same as inverting the polarity of the signal, but in theory they are different.

The red wire is hot and the white wire is ground. Since your speakers have a floating ground, swapping the wires should make no difference (beyond inverting the polarity). But if there were a small leakage current ...

That's why it would be really important to see if the effect is still present when you leave the wires unchanged and digitally invert the polarity of the signal.