Topping E30 DAC Review

[JohnYang1997]

There were measurements done that almost half of the IEMs measured had polarity inverted. And many DACs have inverted polarity too.

Based on your response last time I brought this up I assumed you weren't using the standard XMOS update process. The suggestion I linked there worked for Khadas (their code is on github and almost identical to the XMOS example code), but is CLI only. I'm not a Mac user and I know there have been updates to the OS since, so it's possible they've blocked that now, but it's still fine for linux. I can understand why you'd not want to ask most customers to use a CLI though - given that Khadas also do SBCs using linux they probably have different expectations of their customers.

I assume your driver provider is Thesycon, who claim to have DFU GUIs for Mac and linux as well as Windows. Does theirs not actually work as advertised?

I should probably see about getting generic XMOS support added to fwupd which would make it much easier for manufacturers to support updates on linux.

I'll let my colleague who is actually responsible for that to contact Thesycon for confirmation and more detail. As far as I know only Windows platform related stuff was provided.

 

[JohnYang1997]

So as @Toku already mentioned, the toslink and coax inputs cannot be reversed without sending the unit back to Topping?

In short, yes.

 

[NgxHS7]

In short, yes.

May I ask, was this intentional? It seems the D70 doesn't have reversed polarity from these inputs. Are you aware of the D50s having inverted polarity?

 

[hyperplanar]

Also all the subjective positive youtube review of the e30 saying it has more details and wider sound stage than the d50s is probably because of the inverted polarity. I can confirm this, its noticeably fuller sounding now on USB.(which is great but now I have to live with a thinner sounding optical/coax interface)

Highly doubt this is due to anything more than placebo, unless your speakers/headphones have significant asymmetrical nonlinearities.

The polarity inversion is not really a big deal for home listening at all. If you have a speaker, more likely than not the woofer and tweeter’s polarities are already inverted with respect to each other anyways.

 

[mykeldg]

You are correct.

Since this is an update for XMOS firmware, the polarity is only re-reversed for USB input. The coax and toslink input bypass the XMOS hence the polarity is remain inverted for those two inputs. We don't consider this as an issue but an fulfill to a demand from the users. I'm doing my best helping.

Thanks for the quick turnaround, appreciate it. It might not be an issue for other users but for loudspeaker users, the disparity in perceived sound between the 2 inputs are very noticeable on mine. When switching between USB and optical -- the USB sounds fuller and so much better than when I use Optical.

 

[mykeldg]

Highly doubt this is due to anything more than placebo, unless your speakers/headphones have significant asymmetrical nonlinearities.

I was about to return the e30 before the firmware update because I just didn't like the lean sound on my setup compared to my other dac. Now it sounds great. Since this is a science forum, I would actually love to know why this is the case. I even recorded the difference and it is even discernible using basic phone camera.

 

[hyperplanar]

I was about to return the e30 before the firmware update because I just didn't like the lean sound on my setup compared to my other dac. Now it sounds great. Since this is a science forum, I would actually love to know why this is the case. I even recorded the difference and it is even discernible using basic phone camera.

I would love to hear the recording if you don’t mind uploading it.

 

[ModDIY]

You are correct.

Since this is an update for XMOS firmware, the polarity is only re-reversed for USB input. The coax and toslink input bypass the XMOS hence the polarity is remain inverted for those two inputs. We don't consider this as an issue but an fulfill to a demand from the users. I'm doing my best helping.

Thank JohnYang1997

In my case I wanted to buy the e30, but I wanted built-in Bluetooth otherwise I would have purchased. Obviously the entrance that I use 97% of the time is the USB xmos or on a PC or raspberry PI, so the coaxial and the optics are for secondary devices and would not have bothered me in the least. I think the reviews are too hard and do not take into account the reality, which is that the product quality and that there is a correction easy to install, and for the people of Mac, if you do know person to lend you a PC Windows, this is an opportunity to you find new friends ... LOL

 

[mykeldg]

I would love to hear the recording if you don’t mind uploading it.

sure, no worries. let me record it properly, level match and send you the url. im also interested if it is placebo or real (my current findings by ear)

 

[bboris77]

For anyone that is curious about the audibility of this, here is a neat test:
https://www.audiocheck.net/blindtests_abspolarity.php

 

[samsa]

I think you can compile XMOS DFU loader for Mac.
This guide can help you. The source could be downloaded from here.
Also, here is a topic about that.

That source is customized for the Toneboard.

It would need to be edited to work with the E30.

/* the device's vendor and product id */
#define XMOS_VID 0x20b1

#define XMOS_XCORE_AUDIO_AUDIO2_PID 0x3066
#define XMOS_L1_AUDIO2_PID 0x0002
#define XMOS_L1_AUDIO1_PID 0x0003
#define XMOS_L2_AUDIO2_PID 0x0004
#define XMOS_SU1_AUDIO2_PID 0x0008
#define XMOS_U8_MFA_AUDIO2_PID 0x000A

I know that, for the E30, the XMOS_VID should be 0x152a and that the product ID is 0x8750. But I wouldn't know what to fill in for the other values, and I am a little reluctant to experiment ...

 

[samsa]

Actually, there's no harm in experimenting with the "--upload" flag. That just reads the current firmware. Changing the VID and PID alone clearly do not suffice:

$ ./E30_dfu_tool --upload currentfirmware.bin
VID = 0x152a, PID = 0x8750, BCDDevice: 0x106
Could not find/open device

 

[Tup3x]

sure, no worries. let me record it properly, level match and send you the url. im also interested if it is placebo or real (my current findings by ear)

Some do claim that it's noticeable. I don't know but I have no idea what was the point to invert it in the first place.
https://archimago.blogspot.com/2019/06/musings-and-listening-on-absolute.html

 

[kkeretic]

May I ask, was this intentional? It seems the D70 doesn't have reversed polarity from these inputs. Are you aware of the D50s having inverted polarity?

According to this test the D50s is in phase, I can clearly hear the difference, at least with my sample of D50s.

 

[LMW]

Hello, new member here. Has anyone bought the E30 from Shenzhenaudio? I ordered and paid on May 13, 2020 but nothing is happening. My order still says unfulfilled. Are they out of stock? or is it to do with E30 issues that have been coming up that I have seen in this forum. I know they say 1 to 3 business days for quality control but it is past that. I sent an email yesterday about my order but have not received a response yet.

 

[somebodyelse]

We are talking firmware here. A firmware update happens once or twice. If Windows computers where nowhere to be found you had a point. But we are talking a 2 minute action here on machines easily obtainable all around you. Most brands of DACS I know only deliver their firmware updates on Windows. So is that a reason not to buy any DAC at all? And, as already said, you partly have to blame Apple for that too, because they don't make it exactly easy for a manufacturer.

BTW Topping has provided a fix for this phase inverted issue very quickly within 1 or 2 days. You could compliment them for that (and for listening to their customers) instead of complaining. It will take you 2 minutes to apply this fix.
I had a much more expensive Pro-ject DAC. It took them half a year to fix something much more serious (they only provided an installer for Windows too).
I still think you make a big deal out of nothing.

I don't need to blame Apple for anything - I'm using linux, so have an even smaller market share and chance of support. That makes me all the more appreciative of support where it does exist, even if it's just providing sufficient information for someone in the community to make it work, and it is a factor in my purchasing choices. Khadas responded quickly when shown how an XMOS firmware updater for linux and mac could work, and the TB performance isn't all that far behind the E30, so it's not like I don't have a choice if I want to buy a DAC. I'm hoping Topping, Soncoz and maybe others will follow a similar path.

I applaud Topping and @JohnYang1997 for being a whole load more responsive than most manufacturers, and what looks like a trend of improving performance at falling prices - this is great to see. It doesn't mean I won't ask for improvements in other areas - it's up to them to judge whether or not it's worth the cost, just like any other customer request.

 

[Pep2020]

My first post. I've just received my E30 and not even set it up yet. I will only ever use optical toslink input (then into Cambridge topaz amp then speakers). Can someone confirm if this will sound worse than USB? Not sure whether to return before opening or if it will still sound as good as the many reviews indicate?

 

[Tiller]

For anyone that is curious about the audibility of this, here is a neat test:
https://www.audiocheck.net/blindtests_abspolarity.php

Thank you for showing this page.
I was always reluctant to admit there can be audible difference but this test is very convincing.
Even listening to the tiny "speakers" of my monitor the inverted polarity sounds flatter and the right one more forward.
I have to fix my D10.

 

[facboy]

For anyone that is curious about the audibility of this, here is a neat test:
https://www.audiocheck.net/blindtests_abspolarity.php

I've had a couple of beers but i'm at 50%, i can't tell the difference.

 

[somebodyelse]

My first post. I've just received my E30 and not even set it up yet. I will only ever use optical toslink input (then into Cambridge topaz amp then speakers). Can someone confirm if this will sound worse than USB? Not sure whether to return before opening or if it will still sound as good as the many reviews indicate?

I assume this is in relation to the 'absolute phase' question, and the firmware update that fixes it for USB but not optical or coax. The reviews were done before anyone spotted this, so out of the box it should sound as reviewed. As to whether it's 'right' in your system, you'd need to check whether the amp and speakers preserve absolute phase too - not all of them will.

The other question is whether or not you can hear the difference with music anyway. The archimago post metioned by @Tup3x presents it quite well with a verifiable test taht you could try for yourself. In that case at least, with synthetic test tones the difference can be reliably detected in ABX testing, but with an instrument with an asymmetric waveform (so is more likely to be detectable) the difference couldn't be reliably heard. Perhaps with some synth-heavy music it will be audible.