Topping E30 DAC Review

[Lupin]

I dunno, I'm dang happy with my E30. I likely won't consider upgrading until the XMOS 308/316 finds its way into an E30 III

And what exactly is the XMOS 308/316 going to do for the audio signal at the outputs of the DAC?

 

[zepplock]

And what exactly is the XMOS 308/316 going to do for the audio signal at the outputs of the DAC?

Random numbers and letters greatly enhance 3d imaging, dark backgrounds and instrument separation.

 

[ITJ]

It doesn't matter. As soon you introduce the existence of DAC, it doesn't work. A 20bit dac with 64bit volume control will have 19bit if you attenuate 6db.
"
Use PRE mode. For every -6db volume you only lose 1bit out of 32bit. Adjust you speaker volume such that you are using e30 around around -20db so you have enough room for up and down, you should lose no quality at all because the dac itself only has about 20bit snr.
"
No.

My apologies for digging up an old discussion. But I am considering putting the E30 in my system as a way of volume control

I am not sure if I follow this correctly. But if the E30 has a dynamic range of 19.5 bits, does that mean that you have 3.5 bits or 21dB of digital attenuation without introducing noise? And once you start adding noise into the audible range, the more attenuation, the more likely you pick up on the noise produced by the DAC ?

 

[staticV3]

And once you start adding noise into the audible range, the more attenuation, the more likely you pick up on the noise produced by the DAC ?

The output noise of the E30 is always the same.

It does not increase when you turn down the volume.

However, if you turn down the E30 a lot, and turn up your Amp by the same amount to compensate, then you may hear some additional hiss.

 

[SuicideSquid]

My apologies for digging up an old discussion. But I am considering putting the E30 in my system as a way of volume control

I am not sure if I follow this correctly. But if the E30 has a dynamic range of 19.5 bits, does that mean that you have 3.5 bits or 21dB of digital attenuation without introducing noise? And once you start adding noise into the audible range, the more attenuation, the more likely you pick up on the noise produced by the DAC ?

Kind of, but you have it backwards.

What you're changing when you turn the volume up and down is the signal, not the noise. Noise is always fixed at -110dB and at full volume the signal peaks at 0dB, so you have 20 bits of dynamic range. Turn the volume down so that your signal peaks at -30dB, and you have 14 bits of dynamic range. The noise floor never changes, but the difference between the noise floor and the peak signal is now 80dB instead of 110dB.

When Amir writes that a DAC has a dynamic range of 19.5 bits, he's saying that if you play a 16bit recording, the quietest possible sound that could be encoded in that recording is still around 20dB louder than the noise floor, so you can hear everything. For a 24bit recording, you could potentially lose some quiet signals below the noise floor; however, a 24 bit signal has a dynamic range greater than human hearing, and any actual mastered recording is genuinely going to compress most audible sound into a 30-40dB dynamic range, so that's really a purely theoretical concern.

When you turn the volume down you're not adding noise but decreasing signal. You are correct that you have 21 dB of attenuation before you would start losing the quietest possible sound in a 16 bit recording below the noise floor, but you're losing the signal, not adding the noise, if that makes sense. But also, if you're listening at normal volume, and your quietest possible sound is -110dB, that's almost certainly below the threshold of audibility for you in a normal listening space.

 

[Robbo99999]

My apologies for digging up an old discussion. But I am considering putting the E30 in my system as a way of volume control

I am not sure if I follow this correctly. But if the E30 has a dynamic range of 19.5 bits, does that mean that you have 3.5 bits or 21dB of digital attenuation without introducing noise? And once you start adding noise into the audible range, the more attenuation, the more likely you pick up on the noise produced by the DAC ?

The output noise of the E30 is always the same.

It does not increase when you turn down the volume.

However, if you turn down the E30 a lot, and turn up your Amp by the same amount to compensate, then you may hear some additional hiss.

I'd bet you'd have to run a large -dB on the E30 to start hearing hiss, by how much I don't know, but I'd imagine it wouldn't be a limit that would be reached in most practical scenarios.

 

[ITJ]

If there is a better thread to discuss this, please feel free to point me into the right direction

However, if you turn down the E30 a lot, and turn up your Amp by the same amount to compensate, then you may hear some additional hiss.

(Theoretical) When using the E30 in combo with a power amp (Topping PA5 for example) would the constant (max) volume/gain from the power amp not be compensated by the attenuation of the E30. Turning down the the E30 and turn up (max) the amp to listenable SPL levels ?

What you're changing when you turn the volume up and down is the signal, not the noise. Noise is always fixed at -110dB and at full volume the signal peaks at 0dB, so you have 20 bits of dynamic range. Turn the volume down so that your signal peaks at -30dB, and you have 14 bits of dynamic range. The noise floor never changes, but the difference between the noise floor and the peak signal is now 80dB instead of 110dB.

The output noise of the E30 is always the same

Just trying to get my head around it;

Noise of the E30 is -110dB
Max Volume signal peaks at 0dB lowest possible signal > -110dB from peak

Noise of the E30 is -110dB
30dB attenuation signal peaks at -30dB, lowest possible signal > -80dB from peak

When you turn the volume down you're not adding noise but decreasing signal. You are correct that you have 21 dB of attenuation before you would start losing the quietest possible sound in a 16 bit recording below the noise floor, but you're losing the signal, not adding the noise, if that makes sense. But also, if you're listening at normal volume, and your quietest possible sound is -110dB, that's almost certainly below the threshold of audibility for you in a normal listening space.

I'd bet you'd have to run a large -dB on the E30 to start hearing hiss, by how much I don't know, but I'd imagine it wouldn't be a limit that would be reached in most practical scenarios

Is this highly dependable on the amplifier and the background noise level of the room?
Not exactly sure how to calculate this.

 

[Robbo99999]

Is this highly dependable on the amplifier and the background noise level of the room?
Not exactly sure how to calculate this.

It would be dependant on the background noise in the room and also your own hearing capabilities and also how close you were to the speakers, so good luck working it out. Maybe you could work it out for yourself if you're able to get your hands on an audio file that replicates normal background hiss of DACS, and praps those files would be recorded at various decreasing signal levels, so in terms of recorded at ever greater -dBFS. Then you'd see at which recording you'd hear the hiss at your listening position (and of course your E30 would be at full signal (0 dBFS) because it's the audio file that's recorded at a lower dBFS). So that might give you a theoretical -0dBFS relationship of what the actual noise level of the DAC would need to be to hear hiss under your real world conditions. You'd then compare that to the theoretical noise floor of the E30. I just devised this, I'm not entirely sure if it's a valid test.

 

[Klirren]

The E30 works great.

A second coaxial or optical output would be fine; Is there any suggestion for a DAC in this level round 150 $?

 

[Bleib]

The E30 works great.

A second coaxial or optical output would be fine; Is there any suggestion for a DAC in this level round 150 $?

Smsl m300se. Balanced and headphone amp too

 

[Klirren]

Done!
I did find in the deep of the cellar
a 4 x 1 optical switcher

 

[kolestonin]

Hello,

I am using this DAC as follows:
windows 10 pc>topping e30>topping pre90>arthur 3409/N2(power amp)

I am thinking off replacing my preamp with a Rotel RC-1572mkii.

I see that the Rotel has an integrated DAC(Texas Instruments 32-bit/384kHz) so I consider to completely remove my current e30 from the chain and do: windows 10 pc>RC-1572MKII>Power amplifier.
I can of course keep my current DAC and do: windows 10 pc>e30>RC-1572MKII>Power amplifier.

What are the advantages of each usage scenario?
Is Topping E30 better than the integrated DAC of the Rotel preamp to an audible extent?

Thanks

 

[Saponetto]

E30 Mk1 was one of my early DACs.
Got it way over three years ago, and it was the only one I still enjoy to use.
I doubt you will find Rotel's inner DAC somewhat better than this little, old guy.
My 5 cents, of course.

 

[zepplock]

Hello,

I am using this DAC as follows:
windows 10 pc>topping e30>topping pre90>arthur 3409/N2(power amp)

I am thinking off replacing my preamp with a Rotel RC-1572mkii.

I see that the Rotel has an integrated DAC(Texas Instruments 32-bit/384kHz) so I consider to completely remove my current e30 from the chain and do: windows 10 pc>RC-1572MKII>Power amplifier.
I can of course keep my current DAC and do: windows 10 pc>e30>RC-1572MKII>Power amplifier.

What are the advantages of each usage scenario?
Is Topping E30 better than the integrated DAC of the Rotel preamp to an audible extent?

Thanks

Only possible to tell if someone measures DAC in the RC-1572MKII.

 

[GPJ]

IMO, the original all AKM E30 is one of the best DAC's ever produced. It will run right alongside today's very best DAC;s from a pure audio standpoint.

 

[kolestonin]

Topping E30 has better specs and I bet it also measures better.

What I want to know is, and given that between decent DAC's the audible difference should be in-existent, if there are any benefits in having one device less in the chain. Meaning less connections, less cables etc., as my source(pc) will be directly connected via usb to the Rotel pre-amp, and not to an external DAC as it is connected now.

Can this be beneficial or there are eventually more to lose than to gain by taking the E30 out of the chain?

 

[Mart68]

Topping E30 has better specs and I bet it also measures better.

What I want to know is, and given that between decent DAC's the audible difference should be in-existent, if there are any benefits in having one device less in the chain. Meaning less connections, less cables etc., as my source(pc) will be directly connected via usb to the Rotel pre-amp, and not to an external DAC as it is connected now.

Can this be beneficial or there are eventually more to lose than to gain by taking the E30 out of the chain?

There shouldn't really be any difference at all regardless. The DAC in the amplifier would have to be diabolically bad to be different enough to matter and I'll bet it measures fine but not outstanding. Internal DACs always seem to.

 

[uran0s]

Hi there,

Unsatisfied with the sound of my E30, as I felt it lacked mids and deeper bass, I did a search on the internet and found some users complaining about something similar.
Without thinking too much (silly me) I quickly connected the dac to the mac and uploaded version v1.08, while the upload was starting I noticed that I had version v2.10 on the dac, but it was too late.
Now, I can only connect it to my mac and little else, because when I try to connect it to my raspeberry PI via the usb port, the dac switches off straight away and won't even let me connect it again, just by disconnecting the usb port and waiting 30s.
After screwing up, I did some research (it should have been the other way round :|), and realised that I was on the latest firmware version and that the hardware even has slight differences compared to older versions.

This isn't just a rant, but a request for help, if anyone has version v2.10 that they can share with me? Or that you can download from your dac?

 

[Rottmannash]

Hi there,

Unsatisfied with the sound of my E30, as I felt it lacked mids and deeper bass, I did a search on the internet and found some users complaining about something similar.
Without thinking too much (silly me) I quickly connected the dac to the mac and uploaded version v1.08, while the upload was starting I noticed that I had version v2.10 on the dac, but it was too late.
Now, I can only connect it to my mac and little else, because when I try to connect it to my raspeberry PI via the usb port, the dac switches off straight away and won't even let me connect it again, just by disconnecting the usb port and waiting 30s.
After screwing up, I did some research (it should have been the other way round :|), and realised that I was on the latest firmware version and that the hardware even has slight differences compared to older versions.

This isn't just a rant, but a request for help, if anyone has version v2.10 that they can share with me? Or that you can download from your dac?

Why can't you go to the Topping site and upload the firmware you want? Isn't that how you uploaded v 1.08?

 

[uran0s]

Why can't you go to the Topping site and upload the firmware you want? Isn't that how you uploaded v 1.08?

But their website doesn't have any firmware for the E30, only v1.08, and I got there via this forum.
I've searched a lot and can't find v2.10.