Topping E30 DAC Review

[JohnYang1997]

99% confidence and can't be trusted? What do you need? 99.9999% result with blind tests?

No. The confidence either way is 0.35% not 99%. You need 21/21 or 0/21 to ensure 99%+ confidence.

 

[voodooless]

I got mostly wrong results. It would seems my E30 indeed have problems.

Why not conclude that your phone has problems?

 

[Pdxwayne]

No. The confidence either way is 0.35% not 99%. You need 21/21 or 0/21 to ensure 99%+ confidence.

Then the site's math is wrong? I got 20 out of 27 correct with my phone and it shows 99% confidence.... : (

 

[Pdxwayne]

Why not conclude that your phone has problems?

Yes, indeed it is possible. Maybe next will check with x16. Then if x16 is like my phone, what would you say?

 

[solderdude]

do NOT trust your ears as a measurement device.

Just measure it. Alternatively if you don't like how it sounds return it or sell it. Don't blame it on polarity.
My 2004**** E30 measures correctly b.t.w.

I have measured some headphones to have incorrect polarity (DT1770) for instance. Where the DT1990 does not. This only became obvious in tests when measuring an impulse.

 

[companyja]

If the polarity was inverted, then you would be wrong every time and get 0/21, as @JohnYang1997 mentioned. If with the E30 you cannot tell the difference, then you cannot conclude whether the polarity is inverted or not.

For me on this test, I can reliably do it every time with my K712 through various inputs - my portable Fiio X3 III in USB DAC mode, my old Creative X-Fi Titanium soundcard, my realtek onboard audio. In every input method, the original and the phase have the same differences.

I can barely do it with my IEMs, which are a lot more bassier, and I am also listening for the slight change in the low end on especially the pause after the fourth strum. I can record my screen again to show you that that's what I'm listening for, I understand that it is hard to believe since there shouldn't really be an audible difference. I had a friend make his own polarity inverted test and I ABXd that in foobar perfectly as well, in his case he put a lot of distortion on only one polarity (? not sure I'm using the correct terminology) so that there would be a bigger difference when the polarity was inverted. Indeed it was much easier to hear with his examples, I can find them and upload them if anyone is interested. His hypothesis is that in certain systems, distortion can be different on one polarity versus the other. I can't really confirm that statement since neither he nor I know how that would happen in a technical sense. I am simplyfing his reasoning a lot so I apologize if it sounds like some audio voodoo mumbo jumbo. We are just trying to see what it is we are hearing, if polarity inversion is indeed audible or not.

With my speakers I can not really hear it - I have cheap desktop speakers by the way, never got into speakers. I got around 6/10 which is about right for random guessing I imagine.

 

[Pdxwayne]

do NOT trust your ears as a measurement device.

Just measure it. Alternatively if you don't like how it sounds return it or sell it. Don't blame it on polarity.
My 2004**** E30 measures correctly b.t.w.

Way passed my return windows. : (

Anyway, I wonder if there is a firmware that I can update....

 

[Pdxwayne]

If the polarity was inverted, then you would be wrong every time and get 0/21, as @JohnYang1997 mentioned. If with the E30 you cannot tell the difference, then you cannot conclude whether the polarity is inverted or not.

For me on this test, I can reliably do it every time with my K712 through various inputs - my portable Fiio X3 III in USB DAC mode, my old Creative X-Fi Titanium soundcard, my realtek onboard audio. In every input method, the original and the phase have the same differences.

I can barely do it with my IEMs, which are a lot more bassier, and I am also listening for the slight change in the low end on especially the pause after the fourth strum. I can record my screen again to show you that that's what I'm listening for, I understand that it is hard to believe since there shouldn't really be an audible difference. I had a friend make his own polarity inverted test and I ABXd that in foobar perfectly as well, in his case he put a lot of distortion on only one polarity (? not sure I'm using the correct terminology) so that there would be a bigger difference when the polarity was inverted. Indeed it was much easier to hear with his examples, I can find them and upload them if anyone is interested. His hypothesis is that in certain systems, distortion can be different on one polarity versus the other. I can't really confirm that statement since neither he nor I know how that would happen in a technical sense. I am simplyfing his reasoning a lot so I apologize if it sounds like some audio voodoo mumbo jumbo. We are just trying to see what it is we are hearing, if polarity inversion is indeed audible or not.

With my speakers I can not really hear it - I have cheap desktop speakers by the way, never got into speakers. I got around 6/10 which is about right for random guessing I imagine.

I am using a cheap $50 headphones. Maybe with yours I could do even better. : )

 

[solderdude]

What is the current firmware (that number should also verify you do not have incorrect or old boards).
Visit Topping for this.

 

[Pdxwayne]

What is the current firmware (that number should also verify you do not have incorrect or old boards).
Visit Topping for this.

Sorry, how do I find out the version of firmware?

Thanks!

 

[solderdude]

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/upgrade-firmware-for-topping-e30.16525/

 

[companyja]

do NOT trust your ears as a measurement device.

Just measure it. Alternatively if you don't like how it sounds return it or sell it. Don't blame it on polarity.
My 2004**** E30 measures correctly b.t.w.

I have measured some headphones to have incorrect polarity (DT1770) for instance. Where the DT1990 does not. This only became obvious in tests when measuring an impulse.

Hey, just to be ready when my E30 comes and I feel like testing this when I'm bored - how would I conduct this test, can I do it with just the line in on my soundcard? Would sound recorded with the path of [E30 RCA out/L30 HP-out - Soundcard Line-in] have an inverted waveform if the polarity is inverted somewhere in the chain?

 

[solderdude]

You won't have to test for this. This was solved a year ago. The only product that may need some scrutiny is the L30 when it has 2012 or lower.

When bored you need to create or find a test signal that has a short pulse going positive only (so from 0V to say -3db) in a 1:100 ratio.
Then you need a soundcard and use a (freeware) oscilloscope program and look at the waveform.
It would be wise to check the soundcard input with a 1.5V battery with the + to the input and - connected to ground. That should give a positive pulse. If so the measurements of the DAC wil be correct.

 

[somebodyelse]

Anyone wanting to test their E30 for absolute phase should probably test everything else in the signal chain while they're at it - inverting phase isn't as uncommon as they may think.

 

[half_dog]

Wait. One thing that I don't get here is if this unit has its absolute polarity reversed on that test would possible to hear a difference between the samples. The "punchier" samples would be the reversed sample, no? Independent from the reversal absolute polarity... I did something similar to this with a sample and the reversed sample sounded alike as the non-reversed one.
Btw, may I ask what is your headphones and cellphone model?

 

[solderdude]

Assuming there is an audible difference between proper polarity and reverse polarity then regardless of the absolute polarity one can tell the files apart.
The tricky part is the preference bit. As long as it is unknown which component reverses the phase (or not) it is not reasonable to assume the E30 is the culprit unless it is pre 2004 or the wrong firmware is put in there (all malicious actions from a seller ?) then there may be cause to doubt the E30 or the E30 does not have a serial number and the display PCB shows a number well below 2004.

However, if he can score the other DAC with a similar accuracy but the other file then 1 of the 2 DACs could be a reverse polarity.
Even then it makes sense to measure both DACs.

Obviously the owner finds it does not sound 'good' to him in which case I would sell it.

 

[Pdxwayne]

If the polarity was inverted, then you would be wrong every time and get 0/21, as @JohnYang1997 mentioned. If with the E30 you cannot tell the difference, then you cannot conclude whether the polarity is inverted or not.

For me on this test, I can reliably do it every time with my K712 through various inputs - my portable Fiio X3 III in USB DAC mode, my old Creative X-Fi Titanium soundcard, my realtek onboard audio. In every input method, the original and the phase have the same differences.

I can barely do it with my IEMs, which are a lot more bassier, and I am also listening for the slight change in the low end on especially the pause after the fourth strum. I can record my screen again to show you that that's what I'm listening for, I understand that it is hard to believe since there shouldn't really be an audible difference. I had a friend make his own polarity inverted test and I ABXd that in foobar perfectly as well, in his case he put a lot of distortion on only one polarity (? not sure I'm using the correct terminology) so that there would be a bigger difference when the polarity was inverted. Indeed it was much easier to hear with his examples, I can find them and upload them if anyone is interested. His hypothesis is that in certain systems, distortion can be different on one polarity versus the other. I can't really confirm that statement since neither he nor I know how that would happen in a technical sense. I am simplyfing his reasoning a lot so I apologize if it sounds like some audio voodoo mumbo jumbo. We are just trying to see what it is we are hearing, if polarity inversion is indeed audible or not.

With my speakers I can not really hear it - I have cheap desktop speakers by the way, never got into speakers. I got around 6/10 which is about right for random guessing I imagine.

BTW, you found the original slightly more punchy, correct? Thanks!

 

[Pdxwayne]

Wait. One thing that I don't get here is if this unit has its absolute polarity reversed on that test would possible to hear a difference between the samples. The "punchier" samples would be the reversed sample, no? Independent from the reversal absolute polarity... I did something similar to this with a sample and the reversed sample sounded alike as the non-reversed one.
Btw, may I ask what is your headphones and cellphone model?

Please try https://www.audiocheck.net/blindtests_abspolarity.php yourself and see which is a little punchier. I would like to know too.

Headphone is like this (but a version older) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B084MKNGSQ/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_fabc_ETKA397XNQFMTZEVQYJZ. I use the line out only and not BT or noise cancellation function. Everything off, just straight jack out from phone and jack in to headphones. I got it for less than $50.

Phone is Samsung Galaxy Note 9.

 

[solderdude]

Ahh. Noise cancelling requires a phase shift in either the original signal or the feedback signal.
Could well be the NC is always using the internal amp. All bets are off with such headphones.

 

[Pdxwayne]

Assuming there is an audible difference between proper polarity and reverse polarity then regardless of the absolute polarity one can tell the files apart.
The tricky part is the preference bit. As long as it is unknown which component reverses the phase (or not) it is not reasonable to assume the E30 is the culprit unless it is pre 2004 or the wrong firmware is put in there (all malicious actions from a seller ?) then there may be cause to doubt the E30 or the E30 does not have a serial number and the display PCB shows a number well below 2004.

However, if he can score the other DAC with a similar accuracy but the other file then 1 of the 2 DACs could be a reverse polarity.
Even then it makes sense to measure both DACs.

Obviously the owner finds it does not sound 'good' to him in which case I would sell it.

E30 sounded just fine most of the time. I even mentioned I like the E30 sparkles for electronica. But like I mentioned, bass not as good as x16. I will do x16 with same tests if I have time today.