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Topping E30 DAC Review

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A quick Q about the usb interface: what bits per sample are supported? 16, 24, 32?

On Linux (raspberry pi and fedora) when i try to play a ripped CD track, 44.1k 16bit wav, using ‘aplay -Dhw:1 foo.wav’, it complains that only S32_LE format is supported.

sure enough use sox to generate and send 32bit 44.1k or 48k wav and audio is happy.

is this my misunderstanding, a kernel driver issue or does the E30 only support 32bps on the USB interface?

this is a 2006xxxx unit
Only 16 and 32. You can use -Dplughw:1 to do the format conversion.
 

Fregly

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You need to provide the E30 with power. You can do that with an external power supply or via an USB output from a computer. As long as it has power it will operate on all inputs. I suspect that your previous DAC needed to be powered through USB, that is why it only would function with USB connected.
It had a separate power supply, yet would not work without usb connection. With cd player.
 
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Try
Only 16 and 32. You can use -Dplughw:1 to do the format conversion.
Thanks, that worked. I actually had forgot about plughw interface.

A little curious though - with my Allo Boss DAC (on the same RPI) I can send s16, s24 and s32 was directly to the hw0 device rather than the plughw0.

I always understood hw vs plughw was that the latter performed conversions BEFORE it hit the h/w. Such a conversion on the format suggested that the h/w didn’t support the said format (s16) and hence the Q..
 
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Try

Thanks, that worked. I actually had forgot about plughw interface.

A little curious though - with my Allo Boss DAC (on the same RPI) I can send s16, s24 and s32 was directly to the hw0 device rather than the plughw0.

I always understood hw vs plughw was that the latter performed conversions BEFORE it hit the h/w. Such a conversion on the format suggested that the h/w didn’t support the said format (s16) and hence the Q..
You can check device supported format and rate using this command.
Code:
cat /proc/asound/E30/stream0
 
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You can check device supported format and rate using this command.
Code:
cat /proc/asound/E30/stream0
uname:
rpi4 4.19.97-v7l+ #1294 SMP Thu Jan 30 13:21:14 GMT 2020 armv7l GNU/Lin

Stream0 - just s32
0000:01:00.0-1.4, high speed : USB Audio

Playback:
Status: Stop
Interface 1
Altset 1
Format: S32_LE
Channels: 2
Endpoint: 1 OUT (ASYNC)
Rates: 44100, 48000, 88200, 96000, 176400, 192000, 352800, 384000, 705600, 768000
Data packet interval: 125 us
Interface 1
Altset 2
Format: S32_LE
Channels: 2
Endpoint: 1 OUT (ASYNC)
Rates: 44100, 48000, 88200, 96000, 176400, 192000, 352800, 384000, 705600, 768000
Data packet interval: 125 us
Interface 1
Altset 3
Format: SPECIAL DSD_U32_BE
Channels: 2
Endpoint: 1 OUT (ASYNC)
Rates: 44100, 48000, 88200, 96000, 176400, 192000, 352800, 384000, 705600, 768000
Data packet interval: 125 us
 

GPJ

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According to Amir, one measures great, one measures like shit. My subjective opinion is that that combo sounds absolutely excellent with Beyerdynamic DT-1990 Pro 250ohm (or T1 600ohm). Background at low gain, max volume is dead black silent. The Bugle Boy 6DJ8 driver tubes are nearly 60 years old. My SP200 usually sits there; the Valhalla 2 is just as enjoyable. Absolutely no one could convince me otherwise. The matching glow of the tubes and E30 display are perfect. (just shot with Galaxy S9+, night mode)

20200712_202438.jpg
 
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voodooless

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For example, a sine wave of -90 dB is not an audio signal, which means that it does not reflect the behavior of the system under study when playing music. For substantially nonlinear systems, the principle of superposition is not satisfied. That is, the response of the system to a complex signal is not equal to the sum of the reactions to the components of this signal. That is, one harmonic per sinus. Two sines - already 10 times more modulation products. 100 sines 1000 times more modulation products. The condition that the response to 1 sinus will be the same as to a musical signal is not fulfilled.
Well, any (audio) signal can be made from an arbitrary number of sine signals. So yes, the sum of these sines perfectly recreates the original signal. For signals we humans can hear, we don't need to eternally keep doing this. We cannot hear above roughly 20Khz, so we can just leave those away. Nyquist and Shannon knew what they were talking about.

Even if it were true what you say, how would the "better" DAC do better at what you say? A proper ADC system would already filter out the extra harmonics above 20Khz as well. And even if not and they would be magically there in the digital bits, how do those magical DAC companies create their products? Is there some dark secret in the audio industry that just a few know about? Or do those people just randomly stumble upon the holy grail when creating their products? Why would the above not be measurable if true?
 
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solderdude

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You just need to understand that measuring the voltage with a voltmeter when a sinusoid is applied, and this is exactly what is being done - the same benefit as measuring the mass and dimensions. This can be done easily, you can even use very expensive devices and get a lot of decimal digits, but the sense is about ZERO.
For example, a sine wave of -90 dB is not an audio signal, which means that it does not reflect the behavior of the system under study when playing music. For substantially nonlinear systems, the principle of superposition is not satisfied. That is, the response of the system to a complex signal is not equal to the sum of the reactions to the components of this signal. That is, one harmonic per sinus. Two sines - already 10 times more modulation products. 100 sines 1000 times more modulation products. The condition that the response to 1 sinus will be the same as to a musical signal is not fulfilled.
I am not opposed to measurements to identify technical defects. Indeed, the measurements of some AV receivers here show that someone in the development department needs to be more attentive to their work. But buying audio based ONLY on a measurement sheet in a box is the same marketing story as the signature of Peter Qvortrup. That is all I wanted to say.
Have you seen the multitone measurement on the first post and do you understand what it shows ?
 

dir

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Have you seen the multitone measurement on the first post and do you understand what it shows ?
of course i was looking such part of experiments, but I still see no correlation between my personal experience as listener. I swear, I'm not a cable beliver or whatever. I was happy when some device which I don't like as listener, it has bad measurements. It looks fairly as expected. But case with E30 is opposite way. Also i can remind other devices like Roland UA-M10 or SMSL Sanksrit Pro-B - all of them sounds dull despite good digits in measurements. I don’t know why - perhaps too deep feedback in the circuit. But in general, I was convinced that the measurement standards from the 50s do not guarantee a spectacular sound reproduction.
 

dir

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Well, any (audio) signal can be made from an arbitrary number of sine signals. So yes, the sum of these sines perfectly recreates the original signal. For signals we humans can hear, we don't need to eternally keep doing this. We cannot hear above roughly 20Khz, so we can just leave those away. Nyquist and Shannon knew what they were talking about.

Even if it were true what you say, how would the "better" DAC do better at what you say? A proper ADC system would already filter out the extra harmonics above 20Khz as well. And even if not and they would be magically there in the digital bits, how do those magical DAC companies create their products? Is there some dark secret in the audio industry that just a few know about? Or do those people just randomly stumble upon the holy grail when creating their products? Why would the above not be measurable if true?
I don’t think that all manufacturers come in on a single protocol. At least some of them at some stage takes into account the intuition of listening experience. We see this, for example, as Carstens (RME) he always prefers AKM chips over Sabre. Someone else likes to put MUSES02, although another option on the LM will give virtually the same digits in the measurements. I do not think that all these people are misled by marketing myths.
 

JohnYang1997

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I don’t think that all manufacturers come in on a single protocol. At least some of them at some stage takes into account the intuition of listening experience. We see this, for example, as Carstens (RME) he always prefers AKM chips over Sabre. Someone else likes to put MUSES02, although another option on the LM will give virtually the same digits in the measurements. I do not think that all these people are misled by marketing myths.
There are reasons that some engineers experience something. But do not extend any further that's not there. Many people likes starting with Bruno said xxxx then (all false subjective bull crap). There's no chance Muses02 is any better or even as good than many other opamps. See Muses03 is the most sarcastic update to the series.
All but a handful of people who have expressed these subjective opinions are misled by myths and themselves.
 

BDWoody

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I don’t think that all manufacturers come in on a single protocol. At least some of them at some stage takes into account the intuition of listening experience. We see this, for example, as Carstens (RME) he always prefers AKM chips over Sabre. Someone else likes to put MUSES02, although another option on the LM will give virtually the same digits in the measurements. I do not think that all these people are misled by marketing myths.
They are misled by the same myths as everyone else. I'd love to see any of them demonstrate that they can identify these differences with a properly controlled test. The intuition of listening experience? What the hell is that...
 

dir

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They are misled by the same myths as everyone else. I'd love to see any of them demonstrate that they can identify these differences with a properly controlled test. The intuition of listening experience? What the hell is that...
it’s strange that for some reason you are denying the sine or multiton to the honor of being another marketing myth and working great on sales. Well, Topping doesn’t have a charismatic human personality like Peter Qvotrup, but they show instead a screenshot of Audio Precision. Is it enough for you? Well, OK. Me not.
 

voodooless

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They are misled by the same myths as everyone else. I'd love to see any of them demonstrate that they can identify these differences with a properly controlled test. The intuition of listening experience? What the hell is that...
They are just part of the the big marketing machine. There might be several other reasons to stick with AKM other than subjective sound quality. For instance perception of customers regarding a change, good relation with AKM and therefore good prices, ease of development on a known platform.. and there might be many more.

I don’t think that all manufacturers come in on a single protocol. At least some of them at some stage takes into account the intuition of listening experience. We see this, for example, as Carstens (RME) he always prefers AKM chips over Sabre. Someone else likes to put MUSES02, although another option on the LM will give virtually the same digits in the measurements. I do not think that all these people are misled by marketing myths.
That doesn't really answer anything objectively.. does it?
 

BDWoody

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it’s strange that for some reason you are denying the sine or multiton to the honor of being another marketing myth and working great on sales. Well, Topping doesn’t have a charismatic human personality like Peter Qvotrup, but they show instead a screenshot of Audio Precision. Is it enough for you? Well, OK. Me not.
When anyone can do more than allude to things that can't be measured...like...you know...show that they can hear what they claim...I'll start paying more attention to their info. Until they can show that what is currently being used isn't complete, I'll assume it's complete enough. Someone claiming otherwise is irrelevant unless they can demonstrate it. People are so quick to jump on unsupported claims... So, you trust someone's ears more than the AP? Well, OK. Me not.
 

dir

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When anyone can do more than allude to things that can't be measured...like...you know...show that they can hear what they claim...I'll start paying more attention to their info. Until they can show that what is currently being used isn't complete, I'll assume it's complete enough. Someone claiming otherwise is irrelevant unless they can demonstrate it. People are so quick to jump on unsupported claims... So, you trust someone's ears more than the AP? Well, OK. Me not.
not this way. Until a convincing mathematical model of hearing is not created, I will take into account the subjective listening and the available measurements both. I am just sharing my experience with E30 on of this thread about E30. If someone gets "stirred up" just by a fact that different people have different experiences then I feel sorry for his handicap.
 

voodooless

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Until a convincing mathematical model of hearing is not created, I will take into account the subjective listening and the available measurements both.
What constitutes a convincing mathematical model? Is convincing when Peter Qvotrup tells you its good?
 

BDWoody

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If someone gets "stirred up" just by a fact that different people have different experiences then I feel sorry for his handicap.
If someone is confused about what comprises valid data, I feel sorry for the very determined ignorance in the face of abounding information.
 
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