Topping DX9 Discreet - What's the point?

[AetherDrive]

Topping has just released the Topping DX9 Discrete, its a non-Delta Sigma dac or R2R (though this seems like a fancy R2R from my layman's pov) and I just have to wonder, what's the point? Haven't we reached the point of diminishing returns with these specs? Don't get me wrong, from a technology enthusiast standpoint, its cool to have something that's different but outside of it being different are there any benefits to a product like this?

TOPPING DX9 Discrete DAC/Amp

The Topping DX9 Discrete is a fully balanced 1-bit DAC and headphone amp with 16-element PSRM design, 131dB SNR, LDAC Bluetooth, and ten-band PEQ.

apos.audio

 

[boXem]

ts a non-Delta Sigma dac

It is a delta sigma DAC.

 

[oleg87]

Perceived novelty moves product

 

[WeekendWarrior]

You could ask "what's the point" to most new audio electronics products I think.

However in this case there seems a new feature that could, for me, be very useful.

The bit that says "all outputs support independent PEQs". I hope this means you could set a high pass filter for XLR and main speakers, but send a full range output to a pair of subs via RCA (or set a low pass filter to these if your sub doesn't have one). I could be mistaken, but I don't think Topping have implemented this feature before.

 

[SnakeLord]

Topping has just released the Topping DX9 Discrete, its a non-Delta Sigma dac or R2R (though this seems like a fancy R2R from my layman's pov) and I just have to wonder, what's the point?

IMHO - For the most part its just marketing. Topping wants to have their foot set on the higher end "audiophile" market, where you can ask for silly amounts of money for nostalgia BS like tubes as example and meaningless marketing nonsense.

The other reason is, that most of the oily higher end brands position and still using R2R "bit-perfect" technology as an selling point. So for Topping its hard to sell an 1300$ product without offering something "special" or at least comparable to the "audiophile" grade products from known major brands. Especially while you already have something like DXII covering most of the community needs in your own lineup.

From the technical perspective i cannot say much about the diffrences of the R2R compared to Delta-Sigma DAC chip implemintations besides the general google search info. Im sure some of the users here on the forum can explain it much better.
But from what i understand: while both technologies have their pros/cons and right to be, the R2R solution seems to be a more reliable and simplier to implement from an engineering point of view.

Now we need to see the actual performance of the device and compare it to another ones on the market.

 

[solawind]

What the point of making mechanical watches (even luxurious ones), when anyone can buy a cheap and perfectly accurate elecntronic watch. It is exactly the same. People are paying for something unique and distinguishable.

 

[ruumis]

AFAIK, R2R and 1-bit PSRM are quite different beasts.
PSRM might be closer to the digital-to-analogue conversion approach used by Chord Electronics, but still with many differences like FPGA vs discrete, probably different algorithms, etc.

 

[kemmler3D]

outside of it being different are there any benefits to a product like this?

Sure, to the top and bottom lines of Topping!

As long as there are chronic untreated upgradeitis cases out there, we will see a steady march of DACs with no audible benefit over the last one, but compelling "number go up" pitches and soothing changes to industrial design.

 

[solawind]

As long as there are chronic untreated upgradeitis cases out there, we will see a steady march of DACs with no audible benefit over the last one, but compelling "number go up" pitches and soothing changes to industrial design.

at least they do not sell that atomic clocks bs like SMSL does.

 

[Roland68]

Topping has just released the Topping DX9 Discrete, its a non-Delta Sigma dac or R2R (though this seems like a fancy R2R from my layman's pov) and I just have to wonder, what's the point? Haven't we reached the point of diminishing returns with these specs? Don't get me wrong, from a technology enthusiast standpoint, its cool to have something that's different but outside of it being different are there any benefits to a product like this?
View attachment 483834
View attachment 483835

TOPPING DX9 Discrete DAC/Amp

The Topping DX9 Discrete is a fully balanced 1-bit DAC and headphone amp with 16-element PSRM design, 131dB SNR, LDAC Bluetooth, and ten-band PEQ.

apos.audio

The DX9 is a device for people looking for a high-quality device with as few compromises as possible, regardless of whether this offers any sonic advantages.
Since the limited supply of old AK4499EQ chips was exhausted, but demand for such a device continued, Topping is now continuing this device as a Discrete DAC.

The DX9 Discrete is overall a very independent design and development with a few differences from many other DACs with integrated HPA.
- Balance and crossfeed function
- Completely separate and sophisticated power supplies for the digital and analog sections, effectively providing three different and separate voltages
- AK4118 transceiver chip, by far the most compatible solution for SPDIF/Toslink/AES
- Analog and relay-based volume control for the DAC and HPA
- Extremely powerful HPA with peak-range measurements
- Completely separate headphone amplifier for SE and Balanced modes with 6 instead of 4 power amplifiers, with completely separate circuits for SE and Balanced modes
- Large enclosure, allowing for a relatively separate setup of the different sections

 

[WeekendWarrior]

You could ask "what's the point" to most new audio electronics products I think.

However in this case there seems a new feature that could, for me, be very useful.

View attachment 484011

The bit that says "all outputs support independent PEQs". I hope this means you could set a high pass filter for XLR and main speakers, but send a full range output to a pair of subs via RCA (or set a low pass filter to these if your sub doesn't have one). I could be mistaken, but I don't think Topping have implemented this feature before.

Unfortunately the DX9 Discrete can't output different PEQs to different outputs simultaneously, so what I'd hoped for is not here yet.

 

[Roland68]

Unfortunately the DX9 Discrete can't output different PEQs to different outputs simultaneously, so what I'd hoped for is not here yet.

You probably won't find that anytime soon.
What exactly would the intended use be?

 

[WeekendWarrior]

To set a high pass filter for main speakers via XLR, and send a full range signal (or set a LPF) to subs via RCA. So a step towards sub management.

As far as I'm aware, this can't be done with Topping without a MiniDSP or similar.

Topping did say they'd "seriously consider" for future products though.

 

[Roland68]

To set a high pass filter for main speakers via XLR, and send a full range signal (or set a LPF) to subs via RCA. So a step towards sub management.

As far as I'm aware, this can't be done with Topping without a MiniDSP or similar.

Topping did say they'd "seriously consider" for future products though.

With MiniDSP, you don't need an additional DAC.

Given how many problems Topping had with the PEQ on the DX5 II and before, I wouldn't expect it to happen anytime soon.

It would make more sense to focus on solutions that are scalable both in terms of application and processing power.
Crossover Software for Windows, Linux, macOS

 

[AetherDrive]

JDS Labs Element IV does enable independent PEQ and DSP options per output.

 

[solawind]

JDS Labs Element IV does enable independent PEQ and DSP options per output.

do you mean those 12 filters https://core.jdslabs.com/ can be specified for every output ? if so, that is cool, it can be used for both room and sub correction as well . it should work perfectly if its outputs do not introduce any difference in delay.

 

[Roland68]

JDS Labs Element IV does enable independent PEQ and DSP options per output.

The Qudelix-5K has been capable of 20-channel PEQ and 10 per channel for years, and at a fifth of the price. So, absolutely nothing new.
The DX9 Discrete will be able to do exactly that, too, separately for both channels.

But neither the Qudelix-5K, nor the Element IV, nor the DX9, offer the option of additionally driving a subwoofer, which is what @WeekendWarrior was actually talking about.

 

[solawind]

The Qudelix-5K has been capable of 20-channel PEQ and 10 per channel for years, and at a fifth of the price. So, absolutely nothing new.

I think you mixed up channels and outputs. JDS have two outputs so if it allows indepedendend PEQ filters for every output simultaneously it can be used as a digital crossover. Q5K does not allow this, EQ settings in that thing are the same for both (3,5 2,5) outputs, with no way to specify two different EQ presets.

 

[Roland68]

I think you mixed up channels and outputs. JDS have two outputs so if it allows indepedendend PEQ filters for every output simultaneously it can be used as a digital crossover. Q5K does not allow this, EQ settings in that thing are the same for both (3,5 2,5) outputs, with no way to specify two different EQ presets.

I think you don't understand how these devices work.
The Element IV, just like the DX9, only has two channels, left and right.
These can be routed to the analog low-level signal output, the HPA, or both.
The DSP component sits before the D/A conversion; the DAC chip only has two channels (L/R), and these two channels can also be routed to all outputs. But the additional outputs behave like Y-cables.

Of course, you can use the PEQ function to map a high-pass or low-pass filter, but what's the use if there are no additional channels? For example, for the subwoofer(s)?

 

[solawind]

The DSP component sits before the D/A conversion; the DAC chip only has two channels (L/R), and these two channels can also be routed to all outputs. But the additional outputs behave like Y-cables.

you mean it just cant use two outputs simultaneously? then yes, as i said earlier having two PEQ presets for every output will be useless.