Topping DX5 II

[ziggurcat]

And yet, there are plenty of brands who do not have a reputation for releasing buggy, unreliable products.

Have any of the reviews of Topping products here shown you that they are unreliable?

 

[ziggurcat]

It would be good if a Topping rep posted in here - even if just to say that fixes are in progress, what's coming next etc.

This thread is the busiest place I can find for DX5 II chat.

I tagged them the other week, but I'm guessing it's probably not a very active account.

 

[Roland68]

The price has risen sharply in the last 20 years. But you get way better quality by having much more advanced technology and better trained labor force. China was only able to manufacture very low end toys and clothes 20 years ago. But now they can do state of the art things. Also china's QC and testing are state of the art, at a fraction of the cost of Germany. DX5II clearly cannot represent China's QC testing level.

BTW, prices is going down, not up, in the past three years, due to current Chinese economy downturn. there's severe deflation happening there.

Also, do you consider six-figure annual salary competitive? The year I started my career my W2 was already six-figure.
Now 15 years have been passed and I am semi-retiring in my home country, still getting a pay equivalent to six-figure USD with only a small fraction of the US workload. And my country's salary is much lower than the US equivalent.

And that's exactly what's wrong.
Foreign manufacturers have their own people on-site in these areas or outsource these tests and quality controls to other companies, which usually come from the EU or the USA. And that's only marginally cheaper, about 10-15%.
Even many Chinese manufacturers who supply the global industry rely on these expensive foreign companies.

As we ourselves are industrial manufacturers and supply many companies in the industry worldwide, especially in the areas of quality control and product and aging testing, we experience a number of problems with production in China. One thing is always the same.
With higher quality and quality control, production costs rise disproportionately. The headroom for the manufacturer (client) also begins to explode.

Topping's problem isn't the quality of the devices' workmanship, but rather a lack of experience with components, component quality, and experience in development with the longevity of circuits, components, and dependencies. Added to this are the lack of long-term and aging tests, as well as a lack of quality management.
Of course, they can purchase these services at a high price, but that would likely double the device prices.
After all, the costs in this area are precisely what most users massively underestimate.

The lack of quality management is evident in the fact that Topping has no interest in returning defective devices. Topping could learn a lot from analyzing these defective devices to improve the quality of its devices.

For example, we have long known why Topping's A90D (discrete) fails with the R4 and R5 errors, and unfortunately, this will continue to happen with devices already delivered.
Such a trivial error would probably never happen to companies like Violectric/Lake People or RME.

 

[Dandelion]

And that's exactly what's wrong.
Foreign manufacturers have their own people on-site in these areas or outsource these tests and quality controls to other companies, which usually come from the EU or the USA. And that's only marginally cheaper, about 10-15%.
Even many Chinese manufacturers who supply the global industry rely on these expensive foreign companies.

As we ourselves are industrial manufacturers and supply many companies in the industry worldwide, especially in the areas of quality control and product and aging testing, we experience a number of problems with production in China. One thing is always the same.
With higher quality and quality control, production costs rise disproportionately. The headroom for the manufacturer (client) also begins to explode.

Topping's problem isn't the quality of the devices' workmanship, but rather a lack of experience with components, component quality, and experience in development with the longevity of circuits, components, and dependencies. Added to this are the lack of long-term and aging tests, as well as a lack of quality management.
Of course, they can purchase these services at a high price, but that would likely double the device prices.
After all, the costs in this area are precisely what most users massively underestimate.

The lack of quality management is evident in the fact that Topping has no interest in returning defective devices. Topping could learn a lot from analyzing these defective devices to improve the quality of its devices.

For example, we have long known why Topping's A90D (discrete) fails with the R4 and R5 errors, and unfortunately, this will continue to happen with devices already delivered.
Such a trivial error would probably never happen to companies like Violectric/Lake People or RME.

What would you say (if you had to throw a number at it) is the avg lifespan of both sides of the equation (chi-fi vs western counterparts)? Do western counterparts last 3 to 5 times longer?

 

[audiofun]

And that's exactly what's wrong.
Foreign manufacturers have their own people on-site in these areas or outsource these tests and quality controls to other companies, which usually come from the EU or the USA. And that's only marginally cheaper, about 10-15%.
Even many Chinese manufacturers who supply the global industry rely on these expensive foreign companies.

As we ourselves are industrial manufacturers and supply many companies in the industry worldwide, especially in the areas of quality control and product and aging testing, we experience a number of problems with production in China. One thing is always the same.
With higher quality and quality control, production costs rise disproportionately. The headroom for the manufacturer (client) also begins to explode.

Topping's problem isn't the quality of the devices' workmanship, but rather a lack of experience with components, component quality, and experience in development with the longevity of circuits, components, and dependencies. Added to this are the lack of long-term and aging tests, as well as a lack of quality management.
Of course, they can purchase these services at a high price, but that would likely double the device prices.
After all, the costs in this area are precisely what most users massively underestimate.

The lack of quality management is evident in the fact that Topping has no interest in returning defective devices. Topping could learn a lot from analyzing these defective devices to improve the quality of its devices.

For example, we have long known why Topping's A90D (discrete) fails with the R4 and R5 errors, and unfortunately, this will continue to happen with devices already delivered.
Such a trivial error would probably never happen to companies like Violectric/Lake People or RME.

In my industry companies just hire local talents, most of the time from prestigious universities, tons of experience, often from competitor company, as employees to do this. Those people ensure the quality of their products. They understand the company’s demand and they set up the QC standard for those factories so factories know the expectations. They are paid very well with top salaries (six figure USD) locally. But still only a fraction of US salary.

Big corp pay are all public at levels.fyi. Just check and compare the salaries for the same position in the US and China.

There are also pure Chinese companies today making amazing products that shipped worldwide, such as byd, anker or DJI. They don’t rely on m US experts and do R&D and QC by their own. And they create products foreign countries cannot compete with. To me you are talking about China like 20 years ago, and still assume they are babies needs to be taken care of by the mother west. They are not now.

 

[Roland68]

In my industry companies just hire local talents, most of the time from prestigious universities, tons of experience, often from competitor company, as employees to do this. Those people ensure the quality of their products. They understand the company’s demand and they set up the QC standard for those factories so factories know the expectations. They are paid very well with top salaries (six figure USD) locally. But still only a fraction of US salary.

Big corp pay are all public at levels.fyi. Just check and compare the salaries for the same position in the US and China.

There are also pure Chinese companies today making amazing products that shipped worldwide, such as byd, anker or DJI. They don’t rely on m US experts and do R&D and QC by their own. And they create products foreign countries cannot compete with. To me you are talking about China like 20 years ago, and still assume they are babies needs to be taken care of by the mother west. They are not now.

This isn't about salaries, but about equipment.
And the companies I know and work with send their own trusted people to China for such tasks. I've met many of these people personally, and none of them received a lower salary as a result—quite the opposite.

But these are probably due to differences in the industries and quality requirements across all areas.
Some time ago, I myself received an offer from a competitor to go to China for two years to ensure precisely these quality standards for a production facility. Before that, several people had failed for three years and hadn't even achieved 50% of the targets. I politely declined, even though I wouldn't need to work anymore after the two years. I simply didn't see any chance of successfully completing the job. After three more years, they abandoned the project. The goal was a permanent 20% reduction in production costs.

 

[Scoobz1]

What would you say (if you had to throw a number at it) is the avg lifespan of both sides of the equation (chi-fi vs western counterparts)? Do western counterparts last 3 to 5 times longer?

Even if they did they would proably be superseded/outdated within half a lifetime and cost 2-3 times more

 

[Roland68]

What would you say (if you had to throw a number at it) is the avg lifespan of both sides of the equation (chi-fi vs western counterparts)? Do western counterparts last 3 to 5 times longer?

Please do not use the term Chi-Fi, it is not welcome here in the forum and is forbidden by the forum operator.

It's impossible to make a general statement, as it depends very much on the design, components used, etc.
In my experience, Violectric/Lake People devices last at least 25-30 years or more with 10 hours of daily use. After a capacitor replacement for a relatively small fee, they probably last twice as long. Repairs are also not a problem here and don't necessarily have to be done by the manufacturer.

I see similar lifespans with RME.
Both companies have very experienced developers with a wealth of knowledge and experience that younger people and companies simply don't have and therefore aren't applied in development.

This is too big a topic to cover simply.
Some of these Chinese devices can easily last 10 or 20 years, others fail after just one or two years. The reasons for this are extremely varied.

One factor that generally leads to earlier failure is components and circuits with high switching frequencies, which are widely used today for cost and efficiency reasons, for example, in switching power supplies and Class D amplifiers, but also in DACs, HPAs, etc., for power supplies.
Capacitors, in particular, are much more sensitive to such high switching frequencies in terms of service life and failure than to thermal stress. The combined stress from heat and high switching frequencies causes many capacitors to fail in a few months or 1-2 years.

This problem is also known with PC motherboards and PC power supplies.
Capacitors that can withstand such stress over years can quickly become 20 times more expensive, or more.

Another problem is SMD components that are too cheap, such as resistors or non-electrolytic capacitors.
These were originally developed for short-lived consumer products. Unfortunately, they are used by many well-known Chinese audio manufacturers in the production of devices, even the more expensive ones.
These components cause a short circuit when they fail, while higher-quality components become high-impedance or simply stop working.
This leads to two further problems. The short circuit often damages other components in the device. A short circuit in the circuit makes such a device "unmeasurable," making troubleshooting very difficult and requiring the removal of many or dozens of components.
This makes repairs extremely complex and uneconomical.
Furthermore, there are no circuit diagrams available for any of these devices, making repairs incredibly complex and unpredictable for any technician.

Above all, extreme cost-cutting measures, such as extremely simple and proprietary switching power supply designs, such as those SMSL solders directly onto the device boards in some devices, or its own 5V to +/- 12V DC/DC converter, such as those SMSL uses in small DACs like the SU-1, C100, D1, etc., which have already failed several times, demonstrate the extreme cost-cutting measures used in production.
Such a DC/DC converter costs the end customer €3-4 as a spare part in good quality from Murata or Mean Well with twice the power rating. Such a component from these companies should cost SMSL less than €2 to purchase, and probably even less at these quantities.

Do I need to say more about these manufacturers' cost-cutting practices?

This is just a small insight into the problems and reasons for failure in these devices, and by no means everything. You can be lucky or unlucky.

This problem doesn't exist with Violectric headphone amplifiers, for example, because the option doesn't even exist. Furthermore, the development quality and experience are on a completely different and much higher level.

Unfortunately, I don't see any effort from most Chinese manufacturers to change this.

 

[TurtlePaul]

Not worth lumping all of the manufacturers or products from a country into one bucket. Fosi and MiniDSP are both well respected for quality and are in China. Topping devices are hit or miss primarily because of some poor engineering design decisions on some products.

 

[audiofun]

This isn't about salaries, but about equipment.
And the companies I know and work with send their own trusted people to China for such tasks. I've met many of these people personally, and none of them received a lower salary as a result—quite the opposite.

But these are probably due to differences in the industries and quality requirements across all areas.
Some time ago, I myself received an offer from a competitor to go to China for two years to ensure precisely these quality standards for a production facility. Before that, several people had failed for three years and hadn't even achieved 50% of the targets. I politely declined, even though I wouldn't need to work anymore after the two years. I simply didn't see any chance of successfully completing the job. After three more years, they abandoned the project. The goal was a permanent 20% reduction in production costs.

Western companies do send people to China routinely. For instance Apple books 50 daily flights to China, spends $150 million a year with a single airline (news).
The people flying from the US do get very high US pays. But they are in China only for a short period of time. The majority of employees oversee the supply chain is China based.
Those Apple employees in China, however, only get China pay, which is only a fraction of the US salary. Though in China this is already top pay and they have very good life quality with such high salary there.

BTW, China has been the center of manufacturing so it is sucking all the expertise and brains. The US/EU has been deindustrialized for too long and they no longer have up to date knowledge. From your description I can see why a few things are not going well --- Assuming China counterpart is not as competent as the US one and believing sending some US staffs can magically make them reach the target. This will not work. Things usually happen in the reverse way. If Chinese counterpart cannot reach certain goal, it's highly possible no one in the US can. Innovation only happens in where the supply chain is.

Again, R&D, QC and manufacturing in China costs only a fraction of the EU/US costs, and the quality is usually better (US/EU workforce cannot make iPhones, for instance).
Partly due to cheaper labor, better education, better infrastructure in China, and also, industrial policy and devaluated currency.
So my statement doesn't change, if RME develops and builds the same hardware device in china, it would only cost 1/3.

Of course I am not saying China is better on everything related to manufacturing. There are certain manufacturing fields where the western world shines. But China is also quickly catching up.

 

[audiofun]

Unfortunately, I don't see any effort from most Chinese manufacturers to change this.

It is quite the opposite. Those Chinese manufacturers used to pay a lot of attention on product quality and lifespan.
But they are not now. This change is due to this site.

If you still have the product flyers/ads from Topping or SMSL 5-10 years ago (see below), they didn't really focus on benchmark too much.
Most of the info was about better components used in their product.
They bragged about their choice of nichicon capacitors, omron relays, meanwell power supplies, top grade linear regulators, and sota op amps on the pcb.

ASR changed the hifi game entirely and now those companies spend most of the effort on R&D to achieve better spec, but not product quality/lifespan.
If you look at DX5II flyer, for instance, the info is mostly about they designed a special headphone amp circuit or in house i/v converter, to achieve better spec.
None of the info is related to the better components used or longer lifespan.

 

[Dandelion]

Please do not use the term Chi-Fi, it is not welcome here in the forum and is forbidden by the forum operator.

It's impossible to make a general statement, as it depends very much on the design, components used, etc.
In my experience, Violectric/Lake People devices last at least 25-30 years or more with 10 hours of daily use. After a capacitor replacement for a relatively small fee, they probably last twice as long. Repairs are also not a problem here and don't necessarily have to be done by the manufacturer.

I see similar lifespans with RME.
Both companies have very experienced developers with a wealth of knowledge and experience that younger people and companies simply don't have and therefore aren't applied in development.

This is too big a topic to cover simply.
Some of these Chinese devices can easily last 10 or 20 years, others fail after just one or two years. The reasons for this are extremely varied.

One factor that generally leads to earlier failure is components and circuits with high switching frequencies, which are widely used today for cost and efficiency reasons, for example, in switching power supplies and Class D amplifiers, but also in DACs, HPAs, etc., for power supplies.
Capacitors, in particular, are much more sensitive to such high switching frequencies in terms of service life and failure than to thermal stress. The combined stress from heat and high switching frequencies causes many capacitors to fail in a few months or 1-2 years.

This problem is also known with PC motherboards and PC power supplies.
Capacitors that can withstand such stress over years can quickly become 20 times more expensive, or more.

Another problem is SMD components that are too cheap, such as resistors or non-electrolytic capacitors.
These were originally developed for short-lived consumer products. Unfortunately, they are used by many well-known Chinese audio manufacturers in the production of devices, even the more expensive ones.
These components cause a short circuit when they fail, while higher-quality components become high-impedance or simply stop working.
This leads to two further problems. The short circuit often damages other components in the device. A short circuit in the circuit makes such a device "unmeasurable," making troubleshooting very difficult and requiring the removal of many or dozens of components.
This makes repairs extremely complex and uneconomical.
Furthermore, there are no circuit diagrams available for any of these devices, making repairs incredibly complex and unpredictable for any technician.

Above all, extreme cost-cutting measures, such as extremely simple and proprietary switching power supply designs, such as those SMSL solders directly onto the device boards in some devices, or its own 5V to +/- 12V DC/DC converter, such as those SMSL uses in small DACs like the SU-1, C100, D1, etc., which have already failed several times, demonstrate the extreme cost-cutting measures used in production.
Such a DC/DC converter costs the end customer €3-4 as a spare part in good quality from Murata or Mean Well with twice the power rating. Such a component from these companies should cost SMSL less than €2 to purchase, and probably even less at these quantities.

Do I need to say more about these manufacturers' cost-cutting practices?

This is just a small insight into the problems and reasons for failure in these devices, and by no means everything. You can be lucky or unlucky.

This problem doesn't exist with Violectric headphone amplifiers, for example, because the option doesn't even exist. Furthermore, the development quality and experience are on a completely different and much higher level.

Unfortunately, I don't see any effort from most Chinese manufacturers to change this.

Thank you for your insights and for the heads up, I wasn’t aware.
Isn’t this part of the business model? Chinese companies in pretty much all fields are really competitive and operate with the thinnest margins, hence both on a cost basis and a future demand point of view it would make them implode.

 

[Scoobz1]

Back on topic - when is the next update of software due for the DX5ii ?

 

[respice finem]

It is quite the opposite. Those Chinese manufacturers used to pay a lot of attention on product quality and lifespan.
But they are not now. This change is due to this site.

If you still have the product flyers/ads from Topping or SMSL 5-10 years ago (see below), they didn't really focus on benchmark too much.
Most of the info was about better components used in their product.
They bragged about their choice of nichicon capacitors, omron relays, meanwell power supplies, top grade linear regulators, and sota op amps on the pcb.

ASR changed the hifi game entirely and now those companies spend most of the effort on R&D to achieve better spec, but not product quality/lifespan.
If you look at DX5II flyer, for instance, the info is mostly about they designed a special headphone amp circuit or in house i/v converter, to achieve better spec.
None of the info is related to the better components used or longer lifespan.

That, in medical terms, would be a negative side effect. I hope the positive side effect will be, after this, well, shitstorm, to care for longevity too.
And for issuing "ripe" products.

 

[Roland68]

That, in medical terms, would be a negative side effect. I hope the positive side effect will be, after this, well, shitstorm, to care for longevity too.
And for issuing "ripe" products.

And you would also be willing to pay at least 2-3 times the price for these two points?

 

[respice finem]

And you would also be willing to pay at least 2-3 times the price for these two points?

I'm not only willing, I did (buy an RME)

 

[plant550]

I think we need some sort of way to see who in here actually has bought a DX5 II - got a suspicion that the people in here spreading unfounded negativity about 'major' bugs don't even have a unit and just dislike Topping....

 

[Roland68]

It is quite the opposite. Those Chinese manufacturers used to pay a lot of attention on product quality and lifespan.
But they are not now. This change is due to this site.

If you still have the product flyers/ads from Topping or SMSL 5-10 years ago (see below), they didn't really focus on benchmark too much.
Most of the info was about better components used in their product.
They bragged about their choice of nichicon capacitors, omron relays, meanwell power supplies, top grade linear regulators, and sota op amps on the pcb.

ASR changed the hifi game entirely and now those companies spend most of the effort on R&D to achieve better spec, but not product quality/lifespan.
If you look at DX5II flyer, for instance, the info is mostly about they designed a special headphone amp circuit or in house i/v converter, to achieve better spec.
None of the info is related to the better components used or longer lifespan.

Here, too, you're completely off the mark.
I've had Chinese audio equipment on my desk on and off for 25 years.
In the beginning, the build quality and manufacturing quality of SMSL and Topping products were absolutely abysmal, not to mention the component quality. That has indeed changed and improved, but there's plenty of room for improvement. China can definitely do much better, but it also costs a lot more.

These bling-bling components were only used for marketing reasons because they had a good reputation in the Western audiophile community. The rest was still cheap.
The authenticity of many of these bling-bling components had to be questioned. I measured some capacitors from such Chinese equipment and also had a few op amps measured, and the measured values were absolutely inaccurate.
With SMSL, it's also been noticed several times that the advertised components were no longer installed after just a few weeks.

Topping started developing existing circuits and their own very early on, and you really have to give them credit for that.
Unfortunately, they don't apply their knowledge and expertise in all areas.

SMSL (also Sabaj and Loxie) tend to implement the chip manufacturers' circuits. The few exceptions were probably purchased from external developers. This is also evident in the many extremely diverse circuits and solutions in the devices.

At Topping, you can see constant and continuous development in these areas. As is the case with the DX5 II, for example.

Unfortunately, all of these companies optimize extremely for good measurement values. Whether that's always a good thing is another question.
ASR was certainly one of the triggers, but also the proliferation of various measurement options such as AP, REW, etc.
Above all, this also allows for a customer-friendly comparison with Western devices, which many reviewers/YouTubers also use.

 

[Roland68]

I'm not only willing, I did (buy an RME)

The question was whether you would have paid that price for a topping device.

 

[Sokel]

The question was whether you would have paid that price for a topping device.

Isn't there a new Topping device at double an ADI-2 price?
As far as I had a look at the insides it covers all the bling there is at some components (except it has switching high quality PSU instead of linear I think, admittedly because of its isolation so no mains noise in measurements)

And it seems it is selling well.