Topping DX5 II

[Roland68]

Yes, it will be more expensive - I agree. And far fewer people would buy their products if they were priced the same as RME.
But there’s a big difference between $300 and $1,100. Wouldn’t we all want a $600 product that’s rock solid?

We recently talked about expensive headphone amps made in the EU - I'm actually considering the Violectric V550. I guess that's the price I'll have to pay for reliability.

No eq means no complaints about eq, be it added noise or software glitches.

No DAC means additional revenue for DAC. It also means no complaints about DAC performance.

The price you pay is for prestige in that case. And it's a hefty price north of € 2.5k.

It's not a different league, it's audiophile.

*My first real headphone amp was a LakePeople G100, I owned one of the first Violectric V200 amps, so I sort of know what I am talking about. Both of these whre pretty much down to earth compared to the stuff they sell these days.

The 100 and 200 Violectric series are still available at the same down-to-earth prices as before.

The V550 actually belongs in the pro audio category, is built like a tank, and should outlast most devices on the market. And even in 30 or 40 years, repairs shouldn't be a problem, regardless of whether the manufacturer still exists.

The V550's design is quite complex: components, balanced dual mono design, full-fledged preamplifier with 3 inputs and 2 outputs, remote control, fully developed and tested, high-quality and solid housing, sufficient spacing, space, and cooling for all components.
Other devices in this league are rarely cheaper, but often more expensive.

The price simply results from the manufacturer's need to avoid making a loss on their devices and at least cover the costs incurred. This means that all costs incurred with such a device must be spread across a much smaller number of units. This also includes the much higher costs of such a large housing and such a large circuit board for such homeopathic quantities.
Ultimately, a manufacturer of such devices only has the choice of offering them at this price or not. Unfortunately, there are no sponsors in this area.

 

[RHO]

They had many years working on this and the quality is still far from acceptable. Something is off here.

So you know exactly how much time they spent on this product?
It doesn't matter when they started. You can park development for some time and pick it up later.
They clearly were planning on releasing it sometime this year.
And suddenly a bunch of potential customers started "asking" for the product. So they sold them the product.
I think they damn well knew it wasn't fully ready, but good enough to sell some. They saw an opportunity to get an early return on the investment. (by now they have a very good grasp on how capitalism works)
They 'll take their time now to finish the product for those customers who have the patience to wait until it is ready.
You'll see objective reviews popping up when that time has come.

 

[RHO]

And, RME is not issuing a dozen or so new models each year. But what they issued, is a) working as advertised and b) supported years after reaching the market. This is also a factor making them worth the higher price. Yes it is another "league", catering to pros mainly. But it shows how it's done right.

It's a completely different business model. A product intended for a different market. That they can sell also on the "audiophile" marked is just a nice bonus for them.
Not every "audiophile" customer agrees that it's worth the higher price. So it's done right, for certain customers. Mostly not the ones Topping is aiming at with a product like the DX5 II.

 

[Roland68]

products in China and Germany cost differently because the cost in the two places are widely different.
China has infrastructure (factories, transportation, industry policies, and so many other things) and labor force suitable to produce electronics like this,
So topping can spend far less money on R&D and production.
If RME price 1100 for devices developed and produced in Germany, they could price similar quality device at 300 if developed and produced in China.

May I ask where you got this information?
This statement is flawed in many ways.

I've been involved with production in China and Asia for almost 30 years. Firstly, production costs in these countries have risen sharply over the last 10-20 years. And as soon as you want to significantly increase quality, the costs suddenly explode, especially in the areas of components, materials, machine costs, and even manpower.
And what about the really high costs for development, long-term testing, and quality control, not to mention the costs for service and warranty services?

We have various parts manufactured in China ourselves, but we also sell a significant number of our products to China.
Honestly, I would hire you immediately for a six-figure annual salary if you could show me how to offer a device like the ADI DAC for €300 instead of €1,100 and still make money with it. Even €600 would be very interesting.

 

[Dandelion]

And, RME is not issuing a dozen or so new models each year. But what they issued, is a) working as advertised and b) supported years after reaching the market. This is also a factor making them worth the higher price. Yes it is another "league", catering to pros mainly. But it shows how it's done right.

it's not enough and it's not defensible. Chinese companies went from "they just copy" to "they make good things but reliability xyz..." in a decade. Guess what is gonna happen next? On a broader scale people will pick 80% of the product for 1/3 the price any day. Why behringer is doing well with its replicas of expensive synths and outboard? Or audient starting to outselling focusrite & co and even eroding a chunk of market from the higher end (uad, apogee, etc.)? Why Apple can't get away from China even when moving to India? Why Tesla opened a factory in China? You have supply chain. On 100 components you import if you're a western company you pay a markup on it + duties and taxes + you need to pay labour orders of magnitude more... you just can't compete. It's not even about how good you are as a company or how good are your products, You guys are comparing established mature companies with realities that popped up in the past 10-15 years. When I've read the justification of JDS labs to keep the old chips because they perform better with their optimizations I found it laughable, they simply can't afford time and resources to optimize to the new ones and can't implement it without making the products even more expensive. They are delivering a product with less features and quality at higher prices. Oh but a piece of software attached to it performs better! How much better? Inaudibly better. It's pointless.

The fact that people are comparing $200-300 devices to devices priced 4x and get bothered that they're not 100% better than such is kind of laughable and shows how spoiled we can afford to be in this day and age.

 

[respice finem]

It's a completely different business model. A product intended for a different market. That they can sell also on the "audiophile" marked is just a nice bonus for them.
Not every "audiophile" customer agrees that it's worth the higher price. So it's done right, for certain customers. Mostly not the ones Topping is aiming at with a product like the DX5 II.

Maybe with the exception of the "consumer market teaser" RME ADI-2 DAC, which the DX5 II resembles (accidentaly of course).
And in this context, it would be nice to also resemble the "virtues", like a PEQ that is actually usable, and clearly publicly communicate and solve problems (see RME forum as an example).

I can look at it dispassionately, using products of both RME and Topping and being happy with each. I hope Topping's management realizes, quality always beats quantity in the long term, and issuing one half-baked product (or its software) may cost them the hard gained positive reception as a top brand in its segment. But probably, they know, and there are other factors involved we don't know about? Like the departure of a software specialist being hard to replace. Stuff happens.

 

[Roland68]

it's not enough and it's not defensible. Chinese companies went from "they just copy" to "they make good things but reliability xyz..." in a decade. Guess what is gonna happen next? On a broader scale people will pick 80% of the product for 1/3 the price any day. Why behringer is doing well with its replicas of expensive synths and outboard? Or audient starting to outselling focusrite & co and even eroding a chunk of market from the higher end (uad, apogee, etc.)? Why Apple can't get away from China even when moving to India? Why Tesla opened a factory in China? You have supply chain. On 100 components you import if you're a western company you pay a markup on it + duties and taxes + you need to pay labour orders of magnitude more... you just can't compete. It's not even about how good you are as a company or how good are your products, You guys are comparing established mature companies with realities that popped up in the past 10-15 years. When I've read the justification of JDS labs to keep the old chips because they perform better with their optimizations I found it laughable, they simply can't afford time and resources to optimize to the new ones and can't implement it without making the products even more expensive. They are delivering a product with less features and quality at higher prices. Oh but a piece of software attached to it performs better! How much better? Inaudibly better. It's pointless.

The fact that people are comparing $200-300 devices to devices priced 4x and get bothered that they're not 100% better than such is kind of laughable and shows how spoiled we can afford to be in this day and age.

I completely agree.
A few more additions.
- Many people, if not the majority of the world, can't afford an RME ADI device, and often the price of a DX5 II is already a hurdle.
- Many people appreciate the quality of good devices, but won't spend more than a DX5 II. For most people, money is limited, and not everyone considers audio investments a high priority.

- The last 2-5 percent of a product is always at least as expensive, or more expensive, than the first 95-98%, and that's nothing new. This means that the price doubles for the manufacturer and triples or quadruples for the customer.
- If the number of units sold drops sharply due to the much higher price, the manufacturer has to charge an even higher price, otherwise he will go bankrupt.

 

[RHO]

Maybe with the exception of the "consumer market teaser" RME ADI-2 DAC, which the DX5 II resembles (accidentaly of course).
And in this context, it would be nice to also resemble the "virtues", like a PEQ that is actually usable, and clearly publicly communicate and solve problems (see RME forum as an example).

I can look at it dispassionately, using products of both RME and Topping and being happy with each. I hope Topping's management realizes, quality always beats quantity in the long term, and issuing one half-baked product (or its software) may cost them the hard gained positive reception as a top brand in its segment. But probably, they know, and there are other factors involved we don't know about? Like the departure of a software specialist being hard to replace. Stuff happens.

Customer service, product follow-up and development/improvement cost money. I think they concentrate on quick wins.
How that will work out in the long run we will see.
I'm not saying I agree with everything Topping is doing or that I'm a fan of every product they make.
I just respond on remarks I see here where I get the impression some people have a less informed view on how these things can work (not claiming I'm some sort of expert here!).
There's so many different factors involved.
And sometimes some companies just make (strategical) mistakes.

 

[Chagall]

I can look at it dispassionately, using products of both RME and Topping and being happy with each. I hope Topping's management realizes, quality always beats quantity in the long term, and issuing one half-baked product (or its software) may cost them the hard gained positive reception as a top brand in its segment.

 

[audiofun]

May I ask where you got this information?
This statement is flawed in many ways.

I've been involved with production in China and Asia for almost 30 years. Firstly, production costs in these countries have risen sharply over the last 10-20 years. And as soon as you want to significantly increase quality, the costs suddenly explode, especially in the areas of components, materials, machine costs, and even manpower.
And what about the really high costs for development, long-term testing, and quality control, not to mention the costs for service and warranty services?

We have various parts manufactured in China ourselves, but we also sell a significant number of our products to China.
Honestly, I would hire you immediately for a six-figure annual salary if you could show me how to offer a device like the ADI DAC for €300 instead of €1,100 and still make money with it. Even €600 would be very interesting.

The price has risen sharply in the last 20 years. But you get way better quality by having much more advanced technology and better trained labor force. China was only able to manufacture very low end toys and clothes 20 years ago. But now they can do state of the art things. Also china's QC and testing are state of the art, at a fraction of the cost of Germany. DX5II clearly cannot represent China's QC testing level.

BTW, prices is going down, not up, in the past three years, due to current Chinese economy downturn. there's severe deflation happening there.

Also, do you consider six-figure annual salary competitive? The year I started my career my W2 was already six-figure.
Now 15 years have been passed and I am semi-retiring in my home country, still getting a pay equivalent to six-figure USD with only a small fraction of the US workload. And my country's salary is much lower than the US equivalent.

 

[Joachim Herbert]

Price has little to do with EQ, for example the $1000 of the the ADI-2 buys you perfect EQ up to 768kHz (scrap the audibility, we're talking about tech here) apart from the rest.
Vioelectric on the other hand is probably made to outlive its owners if a got the insides right, that's a different matter (love the array of reed relays)

V550 was brought up as reference, which is HPA only. The standard version comes with a motorized pot. Perfect channel balance is an optional extra, as is (Cypress) D/A.

EQ with most chifi devices comes for free with the usb chipset. They just use what's there anyway. Typical buyers are are just happy for what they get. And they get what they pay for.

I have the DX5-II for headphone listening in the living room. Great performer, running cool and providing ample power. If I had a need for EQ I would use roon functionality.

My desktop setup uses an ADI-2/4. Great performer. Gets a little warm, as the DSP and high power HPA takes it's tall.

Love both. Violectric is a different (audiophile) story. I love their pro gear, though. Had a G99 years ago, before that whole craze took off.

 

[Joachim Herbert]

The 100 and 200 Violectric series are still available at the same down-to-earth prices as before.

The V550 actually belongs in the pro audio category, is built like a tank, and should outlast most devices on the market. And even in 30 or 40 years, repairs shouldn't be a problem, regardless of whether the manufacturer still exists.

The V550's design is quite complex: components, balanced dual mono design, full-fledged preamplifier with 3 inputs and 2 outputs, remote control, fully developed and tested, high-quality and solid housing, sufficient spacing, space, and cooling for all components.
Other devices in this league are rarely cheaper, but often more expensive.

The price simply results from the manufacturer's need to avoid making a loss on their devices and at least cover the costs incurred. This means that all costs incurred with such a device must be spread across a much smaller number of units. This also includes the much higher costs of such a large housing and such a large circuit board for such homeopathic quantities.
Ultimately, a manufacturer of such devices only has the choice of offering them at this price or not. Unfortunately, there are no sponsors in this area.

V550 is luxury audio*. There is a lot to love there, but you must love it in the first place. Pro-audio is the LakePeople line.

I am perfectly ok with manufacturers adressing various markets at various price points. I for one am fine with lesser stuff, as long as it measures well, has enough power and lasts a little bit longer than it takes me to want something new. The beauty of current ChiFi is that it brings price performance to levels unheard of before. Everyone can afford SOTA these days.

* I was in luxury audio in my 30ies and 40ies. Mark Levenson, Krell, MBL, Threshold, Oracle, Apogee, Martin Logan... Luxury audio is great. Looking more at performance these days. But as always: Your milage may vary.

 

[Dandelion]

V550 is luxury audio*. There is a lot to love there, but you must love it in the first place. Pro-audio is the LakePeople line.

I am perfectly ok with manufacturers adressing various markets at various price points. I for one am fine with lesser stuff, as long as it measures well, has enough power and lasts a little bit longer than it takes me to want something new. The beauty of current ChiFi is that it brings price performance to levels unheard of before. Everyone can afford SOTA these days.

* I was in luxury audio in my 30ies and 40ies. Mark Levenson, Krell, MBL, Threshold, Oracle, Apogee, Martin Logan... Luxury audio is great. Looking more at performance these days. But as always: Your milage may vary.

I don't get it... Aside from a stupid price, what's luxury about it? Literally every data point is nothing special and any new average topping product is ahead... Then what's the price about? I know audiophile world is a thriving field for snake oil bottlers, but still, audio is an electric signal, there's no unicorn sugar mystical subjective hidden quality that it can have, there's no escaping it. It is measurable, if there's no harmonic saturation and it's transparent (which data shows it is), then there's not even a matter of personal preference on sound coloring, which is still ideologically wrong from a listener point of view, since music is already finished and colored based on artist preferences and it's not the listener's job to remaster/rebalance tracks. It's like a reader crossing words and rewriting differently the book they are reading. So is that price justified in any other way other than the fact that you're paying for Alexander social security and summer vacation in the italian riviera?

 

[Chagall]

I don't get it... Aside from a stupid price, what's luxury about it? Literally every data point is nothing special and any new average topping product is ahead... Then what's the price about? I know audiophile world is a thriving field for snake oil bottlers, but still, audio is an electric signal, there's no unicorn sugar mystical subjective hidden quality that it can have, there's no escaping it. It is measurable, if there's no harmonic saturation and it's transparent (which data shows it is), then there's not even a matter of personal preference on sound coloring, which is still ideologically wrong from a listener point of view, since music is already finished and colored based on artist preferences and it's not the listener's job to remaster/rebalance tracks. It's like a reader crossing words and rewriting differently the book they are reading. So is that price justified in any other way other than the fact that you're paying for Alexander social security and summer vacation in the italian riviera?

Topping DX5 II

Yes, it will be more expensive - I agree. And far fewer people would buy their products if they were priced the same as RME. But there’s a big difference between $300 and $1,100. Wouldn’t we all want a $600 product that’s rock solid? We recently talked about expensive headphone amps made in the...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[oleg87]

According to some in this thread every Topping product is completely broken with bugs and is in early access....although not sure how many of these posters even own any Topping products.

Well, that's how brand reputation works, and that's the reputation Topping has earned for itself.

 

[Joachim Herbert]

Well, that's how brand reputation works, and that's the reputation Topping has earned for itself.

I disagree. That's how social media works. Nitpickers all over the place.

 

[oleg87]

I disagree. That's how social media works. Nitpickers all over the place.

And yet, there are plenty of brands who do not have a reputation for releasing buggy, unreliable products. Since we don't have access to Topping's RMA data, that's what we have to go on.

 

[plant550]

It would be good if a Topping rep posted in here - even if just to say that fixes are in progress, what's coming next etc.

This thread is the busiest place I can find for DX5 II chat.

 

[Dandelion]

And yet, there are plenty of brands who do not have a reputation for releasing buggy, unreliable products. Since we don't have access to Topping's RMA data, that's what we have to go on.

“Buggy unreliable products” c’mon man… is not like your house is gonna explode at random when you turn on the preamp, there’s a software bug on reading the eq presets. It’s a little annoying (and trivial to fix) bug. Even Apple, Microsoft or any major tech company at some point had much worse bugs to deal with than reading/writing a tiny string of information stored in the chip. I mean I’m fairly new to this forum but I’ve never seen something like 70 pages obsessing over a product starting from pre-release to any minute detail including inaudible non-issues (level of eq quantization noise below audible threshold). If anything this level of OCD makes me feel confident on buying the product right after measurements are posted and stock is live.
Btw most products in the category (price range considering) don’t even have on board eq and a good chunk of people (including me) won’t even bother ever ysing it… doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be working in all units, but is to put in scale the issue.

 

[Joachim Herbert]

And yet, there are plenty of brands who do not have a reputation for releasing buggy, unreliable products. Since we don't have access to Topping's RMA data, that's what we have to go on.

If you take a closer look you will find it's only a few that start the fire and keep it going. That's how it works.