Topping DX5 II

[Dandelion]

Reading some of the comments here, you’d think a bug makes a device unworthy of being measured — which is utter nonsense. The only real issues are with the ToppingTune software and equalizer that will be fixed soon enough. None of that justifies any further delay: let @amirm ’s measurements speak at last.

If I have to speculate seeing the timing from market debut to review of other products it could potentially be that we see real life measurements anywhere between august and october.

 

[Sokel]

The Luxsin X9, for its part, was tested by @amirm a month and a half after its release, even while it was still receiving firmware updates.

Luxsin reminds me of Topping's early presence in the forum, only more polite and sounds professional.
Time will tell...

 

[Roland68]

But reliability and QC is a different story, no?

Reliability and quality control testing, as was previously the norm with many manufacturers, would double or triple the price.
This is a complex, time-consuming, and costly process that takes at least six months to a year, even under good conditions.
With the DX5 II, this would have delayed production by this amount of time, and all costs incurred up to that point would have to be prefinanced for this period.

The EQ/software/firmware issue that would need to be resolved would be on top of that.

How many DX5 IIs would Topping still sell if the price were almost the same as an RME ADI-2 DAC FS?

 

[Joachim Herbert]

Sure it can be measured - it will have SOTA results. But reliability and QC is a different story, no?

Even these can be measured, though not by posts on social media. People post to complain, not to praise.

 

[Joachim Herbert]

How many DX5 IIs would Topping still sell if the price were almost the same as an RME ADI-2 DAC FS?

RME became what it is by incremental improvements and ongoing bug fixing. The latest version of the top of the line ADI-2/4 pro got cooling slots on top of the case, which the first iteration lacked. Go figure.

 

[Sokel]

Even these can be measured, though not by posts on social media. People post to complain, not to praise.

I have a perverted way of watching this, I follow praisers (there are some constant ones with multiple devices from each brand) until they praise no more, after some failures.
That's an index to me (not only applied on Topping, in general)

 

[777]

for those interested in the dx5ii schematic
a reverse engineering version with links to the 2 patents involved.

In the left side is an I/V convertor ?

 

[audiofun]

In the left side is an I/V convertor ?

left is the hp amp. right is the i/v.
you should read the patent linked in the doc first. they explain things pretty well.

 

[Chagall]

Reliability and quality control testing, as was previously the norm with many manufacturers, would double or triple the price.
This is a complex, time-consuming, and costly process that takes at least six months to a year, even under good conditions.
With the DX5 II, this would have delayed production by this amount of time, and all costs incurred up to that point would have to be prefinanced for this period.

The EQ/software/firmware issue that would need to be resolved would be on top of that.

How many DX5 IIs would Topping still sell if the price were almost the same as an RME ADI-2 DAC FS?

Yes, it will be more expensive - I agree. And far fewer people would buy their products if they were priced the same as RME.
But there’s a big difference between $300 and $1,100. Wouldn’t we all want a $600 product that’s rock solid?

We recently talked about expensive headphone amps made in the EU - I'm actually considering the Violectric V550. I guess that's the price I'll have to pay for reliability.

 

[audiofun]

Why would they send in devices for review when the product is still under development?
I am quite sure they launched it early because there was some demand from customers to release it "yesterday". (the same people now complaining that the product has "bugs")

I think you underestimate the time.

based on the patent they filed, they were doing R&A on this device since at least 2022 and 2023. The actual planning may happen way before that.
The patents' circuits (IV and HP amp) are almost identical to the real device (just one resistor difference in my eye), which means at that time (2-3 years ago) the device's significant portion of hardware is ready.
In this thread (that link to a korean site) we found the first batch of the hardware was produced many months ago.

Software development is not from 0. Remember they apply similar software (firmware and topping tune) to previous models (such as A70, D70, DX9, D50III etc) before.
So they have enough time and chance to polish their codebase alone the way.

They had many years working on this and the quality is still far from acceptable. Something is off here.

 

[Sokel]

Yes, it will be more expensive - I agree. And far fewer people would buy their products if they were priced the same as RME.
But there’s a big difference between $300 and $1,100. Wouldn’t we all want a $600 product that’s rock solid?

We recently talked about expensive headphone amps made in the EU - I'm actually considering the Violectric V550. I guess that's the price I'll have to pay for reliability.

Can you blame them being like that?
I mean there's a hard core of people at the Hadal depths of fanboism/loyalty/etc that go like:
"great sound, much better at 117dB SINAD compared to my previous 105dB SINAD, it catches a little fire from time to time, no big deal though, I have an extiguicer always handy. My set-up is stereo speakers behind my 42" display - no treatments in room whatsoever"


(yes, it's dramatized for fun)

 

[777]

left is the hp amp. right is the i/v.
you should read the patent linked in the doc first. they explain things pretty well.

So, the input LTP stage in under the negative feedback of the op-amp.

 

[audiofun]

Yes, it will be more expensive - I agree. And far fewer people would buy their products if they were priced the same as RME.
But there’s a big difference between $300 and $1,100. Wouldn’t we all want a $600 product that’s rock solid?

We recently talked about expensive headphone amps made in the EU - I'm actually considering the Violectric V550. I guess that's the price I'll have to pay for reliability.

products in China and Germany cost differently because the cost in the two places are widely different.
China has infrastructure (factories, transportation, industry policies, and so many other things) and labor force suitable to produce electronics like this,
So topping can spend far less money on R&D and production.
If RME price 1100 for devices developed and produced in Germany, they could price similar quality device at 300 if developed and produced in China.

 

[audiofun]

So, the input LTP stage in under the negative feedback of the op-amp.

HP is just differential input (with current source) + op amp gain stage + class b buffer with overall negative feedback and a lot of compensation. It's almost exactly the same as the patent. the only topology difference is the additional R6.
IV -> based on the patent, you can think the diff input + current source + op amp + 2 pole compensation as one op amp. then the circuit becomes a very traditional i/v circuit, with one 900Ohm resistor in parallel with one capacitor wrapping between one input and output, and the other input connects to DAC voltage/2, if you ignore the 3.3Ohm resistor, which adds negligible value to the DAC output resistance.

 

[Joachim Herbert]

I'm actually considering the Violectric V550. I guess that's the price I'll have to pay for reliability.

No eq means no complaints about eq, be it added noise or software glitches.

No DAC means additional revenue for DAC. It also means no complaints about DAC performance.

The price you pay is for prestige in that case. And it's a hefty price north of € 2.5k.

It's not a different league, it's audiophile.

*My first real headphone amp was a LakePeople G100 (Edit: G99), I owned one of the first Violectric V200 amps, so I sort of know what I am talking about. Both of these whre pretty much down to earth compared to the stuff they sell these days.

 

[Sokel]

No eq means no complaints eq, be it added noise or software glitches. The price you pay is for prestige in that case. And it's a hefty price north of € 2.5k.

It's not a different league, it's audiophile.

Price has little to do with EQ, for example the $1000 of the the ADI-2 buys you perfect EQ up to 768kHz (scrap the audibility, we're talking about tech here) apart from the rest.
Vioelectric on the other hand is probably made to outlive its owners if a got the insides right, that's a different matter (love the array of reed relays)

 

[Chagall]

products in China and Germany cost differently because the cost in the two places are widely different.
China has infrastructure (factories, transportation, industry policies, and so many other things) and labor force suitable to produce electronics like this,
So topping can spend far less money on R&D and production.
If RME price 1100 for devices developed and produced in Germany, they could price similar quality device at 300 if developed and produced in China.

Sure. But even at around $500 or $600, this product (if it's reliable) - would still leave the US and EU competition in the dust. And that’s exactly what they need - competition.

 

[respice finem]

RME became what it is by incremental improvements and ongoing bug fixing. The latest version of the top of the line ADI-2/4 pro got cooling slots on top of the case, which the first iteration lacked. Go figure.

And, RME is not issuing a dozen or so new models each year. But what they issued, is a) working as advertised and b) supported years after reaching the market. This is also a factor making them worth the higher price. Yes it is another "league", catering to pros mainly. But it shows how it's done right.

 

[Toni71]

Playing radio some hours as a dac only, the unit on top measures 34.4 Celcius. It sounds fine.

 

[Chagall]

*My first real headphone amp was a LakePeople G100, I owned one of the first Violectric V200 amps, so I sort of know what I am talking about.

And they still work, right?

The price you pay is for prestige in that case. And it's a hefty price north of € 2.5k.

Oh, I know it's insane...But it's only about 5% prestige and 95% peace of mind.

It's not a different league, it's audiophile.

Not sure what you are getting at here...it's not like I'm chasing SINAD.