No way, the difference in sound, and especially in the width of the soundstage, between the Fiio Ka17 and the Fiio K7 is very noticeable, even for me as a newbie.
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Topping DX5 II
- Thread starter Matias
- Start date
I've only found the ones provided by FiiO for that one.
It's not really about being experienced...
Pretty much none of the members here could tell the difference between the DACs you mentioned.
One thing you'll learn after reading the forum for a bit is that human ears are unfortunately quite untrustworthy when it comes to detect subtle differences between sounds.
Yet you heard a difference. How is that possible? Well, it's possible because of a few factors:
- There might be some volume differences in the two DACs, and our ears can certainly detect those.
- You might have listened to the two devices in different moments, but our brains can't really retain much auditory memory after a few seconds have passed.
- We don't listen with just our ears. Believe it or not, our other senses (sight is a big one) have an influence on the things we hear (e.g. a physically bigger DAC means a bigger sound).
- Expectations and biases also play a big role (e.g. this DAC is more expensive, therefore it's better).
If you want to know for sure wether or not you're hearing a difference, you'll need to set up a so-called "level-matched blind test". You'll need to measure the output voltage of your devices to get them as close as possible, and have someone switch back and forth between them while you can't see.
If you still perceive the wider soundstage, then you'll know that the two DACs are indeed different.
If you want to give your ears a quick test (no measurements needed) you can try this test that I always recommend (lossless vs. lossy audio):
Is your audio system really ready for lossless?
Do an ABX test in your browser, and see if you can tell the difference between lossless and Spotify-compression quality audio
abx.digitalfeed.net
The spectrum of a lossy file is actually quite different from its lossless counterpart. If you can't tell a difference between those (I sure can't) then it's likely that you won't be able to hear a difference between DACs that measure almost the exact same (in the audible range).
Captain Thunderpants
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Let's say if I hadn't had my unit die on me day 2 I wouldn't even google the issues and writing on this forum. I guess most people what have issues will write a comment or a review and most who have no issues will not post anything.
Hence the reason for my post
As mentioned in my initial posts (I was the first one pointing out the DC issue), DC protection doesn't work at hardware level, and software level fix won't work for hardware issues. Here is the reason to that.
In a HP amp, DC protection is done via measuring the DC level of the output. It is usually very low cost to do so, as it only needs one capacitor, one resistor, and one comparator, so some products do it per channel if they have ample space on the PCB. But the majority of the products sum L and R channel and let it run through such circuit.
The cost cutting way still works reliably in real world. If your music is poorly mastered, or your amp is running into hardware issues and triggers DC, usually it's either L or R channel having the problem, or both channels having the problem but the DC levels don't cancel out when summing L+R. Unless intentionally created, you don't find music that has positive DC on L and negative level DC on R. In addition, when your amp breaks, it is also very rare that your L channel outputs +V and your R channel outputs -V. So this is very reliable in real world.
But topping goes further by summing the 4 balanced outputs (L+/ L-/R+/R-) together in their DC detection circuit. They went too far. There are plenty of situations this will never work. Suppose your music has DC in the L channel, it got cancelled out to 0V by adding L+ with L- phase. After I pointing out the problem, topping released a software solution, which works fine against problematic music tracks at digital level. However, when your amp malfunctions, it cannot guard against it. Suppose your DAC IV's opamp broke and output +V on L channel, or your balanced output then outputs +V and -V, as the negative phase is produced by reversing the positive phase, and after summing the two phase it become 0V. So the hardware will never be able to detect such fault.
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chungjun
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Browsing around Topping website for DX5ii and noticed that there's newer Windows driver (V6.0.0) than what I had installed on my PC.
Could not find a change log though...
In case y'all are interested...
Could not find a change log though...
In case y'all are interested...
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Thank you for this analysis.
But I wonder how likely your scenario is…how common it is to have an opamp break? Is Topping known for using low-quality opamps?
Clearly I’m not an electrical engineer, so forgive the basic questions.
Asio driver and it works really well.
Usually properly designed circuits don’t fail in theory. But in reality there is a chance they fail, due to various reasons. They are consumer grade products in the end. Yes op amps do fail and no, it’s not due to low quality components.
topping has various amps that are known to have higher than normal probability of failure. In one occasion (L30) they even recalled one of the models, and in that particular case, that’s due to the op amp is failing. In other occasions (such as their speaker amp) it’s also due to the op amp overheating failure as they seal them in modules.
Bleib
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Mentioned in another topic that it's made compatible with win11 25h2
MinuTacked
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Heya! I am currently transitioning from my E70V+L70 Stack to the DX5 II, it's going fine so far. I did notice a few things missing/not existing/not working:
Anyone aware of any mentions about those points from users or Topping? The Safe Volume is pretty important to me. I will contact Topping otherwise and request it.
On the Tune and import issue:
When i imported my LS50M RC PEQ from the config file i had for E-APO, Topping Tune did it almost without flaws: pre-amp was wrong. Trying to import my Arya PEQ didn't work at all: It did put my PEQ from the LS50M instead. Several times. After deleting every filter manually, trying to re-import the same file again resulted in the software adding jsut two absolute random filters. i deleted those and manually added the needed filters myself. At that point i came across the pulldown menu being unresponsive for selecting Corner or Center frequency. I'm glad it was pre-selected with the one i needed (corner) on a Low-Shelf Filter.
On an unrelated note, the DX5 II sounds indistinguishly to my former stack, so that's good, actually expected. Using the Arya Organic on 4-pin XLR and a Audiophonics MPA-S250NC on XLR powering some LS50 Metas and a SVS SB-1000 Pro on RCA. No change in how i perceived the Sound quality, or better said: it sounded familiar, my brain didn't spot something "being off". I'm very happy so far! If not almost for the fact of having only to use one remote now. I cannot tell how inconvenient two remotes for the E70V and L70 were. especially in the dark. Also 3 less cables on the back (trigger, XLR inter-connect), awesome!
All together the DX5 II is just preem!
Edit: Also played with the Cross-feed, it's meh. Best setting to me is simple -> improved. But i won't use that feature for now. Aryas sound way better without it even with heavy stereo-panning sounds.
- On the L70 i could set a Device Power-on Safe-Volume, for example-55db for HPA and/or LO
- Saving a preset to C1 and C2 on the DX5 II also saves the current input (do not want)
- Topping Tune: Using a Shelf Filter, the Corner and Center frequency PD-menu is unresponsive to mouse clicks
- Import feature is hit and miss
- a red theme would be nice
- a theme editor?
Anyone aware of any mentions about those points from users or Topping? The Safe Volume is pretty important to me. I will contact Topping otherwise and request it.
On the Tune and import issue:
When i imported my LS50M RC PEQ from the config file i had for E-APO, Topping Tune did it almost without flaws: pre-amp was wrong. Trying to import my Arya PEQ didn't work at all: It did put my PEQ from the LS50M instead. Several times. After deleting every filter manually, trying to re-import the same file again resulted in the software adding jsut two absolute random filters. i deleted those and manually added the needed filters myself. At that point i came across the pulldown menu being unresponsive for selecting Corner or Center frequency. I'm glad it was pre-selected with the one i needed (corner) on a Low-Shelf Filter.
On an unrelated note, the DX5 II sounds indistinguishly to my former stack, so that's good, actually expected. Using the Arya Organic on 4-pin XLR and a Audiophonics MPA-S250NC on XLR powering some LS50 Metas and a SVS SB-1000 Pro on RCA. No change in how i perceived the Sound quality, or better said: it sounded familiar, my brain didn't spot something "being off". I'm very happy so far! If not almost for the fact of having only to use one remote now. I cannot tell how inconvenient two remotes for the E70V and L70 were. especially in the dark. Also 3 less cables on the back (trigger, XLR inter-connect), awesome!
All together the DX5 II is just preem!
Edit: Also played with the Cross-feed, it's meh. Best setting to me is simple -> improved. But i won't use that feature for now. Aryas sound way better without it even with heavy stereo-panning sounds.
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ziggurcat
Major Contributor
That's how the presets work. It saves all of the settings you have chosen when you decide to save a preset, including the input. I would imagine it functions the exact same as the C1/C2 buttons that are on the L70's remote.
Safe volume would probably be a great feature for them to add.
What are the current FW and TT versions you have installed?
MinuTacked
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Well, technically they don't. The origin sound-input is separated by being on the E70V. The L70 C1/2 Buttons do not interact with the E70V. Well ok it saves the "input" on the L70 coming from the E70V (XLR in my case). Anyway it would have been nice to have a bit of refinement what gets saved. Not a big issue.
I directly installed the latest firmware (2.07 or something) before doing anything with the DX5 II and I downloaded the latest available TT version on their page as of today. Also not an issue as my PEQs work as intended, but someone else might stumble onto this.
Btw I noticed my stereo making a very brief high pitched "plop" when switching off the DX5 II, my amp is connected with a trigger cable. My L70 didn't do that. I hope it doesn't do any harm.
ziggurcat
Major Contributor
The weird thing is if I open my Windows virtual machine, and go to download that driver, even though it's the v6.0.0 link on their site, the driver in the folder is v5.74. If I check out that same folder on the Mac side, it says v6.0.0
Bleib
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Oh, this should be reported in
I don't use any drivers atm at all, win11
ziggurcat
Major Contributor
Not for me. It still shows v5.74 when I download that folder via my Windows 11 VM. I literally had to download the file from my Mac, then upload it to my Google Drive, and down load it from the Google Drive while in my VM to install the v6.0.0 driver. It wouldn't even let me attach it to an e-mail -- it would block it from being attached to the e-mail.
I suspect that your issue has more to do with running Windows 11 in a VM on a Mac than it does with Topping's website.
ziggurcat
Major Contributor
Oh, most definitely. The VM has been real strange for me, and up until who-knows-when (it's been months since I've checked), if I tried to install the v5.74 driver, the system would tell me that the current version was not compatible because my Windows 11 VM is an ARM-based VM. That seems to have been addressed, now, and I can install the driver in the Windows VM, but if I run the audio test in the Windows sound settings, sometimes it'll play the bell chimes correctly, but it will also go from normal to sounding like a distorted robot, and back to normal again. It's all very weird. Uninstalling the Topping driver does make it all sound as it should, but then I get the constant data streaming popping as it is in MacOS.
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