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Topping DX3 Pro v1, DX3 PRO + and Samsung TV toslink output

pattox

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Some years ago I bought the first version of the DX3 pro. Over the past few months I starting using this together with a Samsung TV to send the optical output to powered Yamaha speakers. And that seems to have worked very well with terrific sound quality, no glitches and no momentary interruptions to sound.

Most recently I needed an additional dac and decided to buy the very latest topping DX3 Pro+. Out of curiosity I tried this latest DX3 Pro+ with the tv and speakers. Sound quality was still terrific (and to my ear, identical) but there are occasional momentary dropouts in sound (only apparent with music).

I recall that jitter from the tv optical output might the underlying reason, and occurs when the DX3 Pro+ thinks there is sync error with the tv and recalibrates .
With the v1 DX3 Pro this doesn't seem to happen. I think the V1 uses an AKM chip while the Pro+ uses an ESS chip.

I'd really be interested to find out in more detail about this difference and why this is so.
 

Greyfox

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Yes, it will be the ESS chips' low jitter tolerance.
SMSL and some other companies now included DPLL adjustment into ESS DAC-s, which makes them possible to work better with TV optical outs.
I've checked the manual, DX3 PRO+ don't have any option like that. :( Maybe a firmware update in the future could fix this.
 

gvl

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While ESS chips may have something to do with it, the blame was on the SPDIF receiver if memory serves. They used AKM receivers until they became unavailable and then switched to CS8416 and some others that’s when the problems started.
 
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pattox

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Many threads on the forum mention the tv/dac/jitter problem. Its obviously a widespread problem.

It is clear to me that if one plans to use a dac with a tv then the take away

- buy a dac with adjustible dppl: the cheapest I could find was an smsl su-6.
- alternaively a dac with the akm chipset don’t seem to have the problem, not sure why..perhaps becausethey just pass on the signal without trying to relock or correct the jitter?
 

Johannezz

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Being a new member to this site, this is my first post, I want to thank everyone for the time, love and devotion put into this fantastic site.
In my audio set, the cracking noise using my new tv connected optical is very annoying. It sounds like static discharge. The same connection made with my almost antique CD-player works perfectly. The Bluetooth connection with the same tv works fine, but that is not the way I want to use the DX3 PRO+

Being a total noob regarding technical and electronic topics, i have experience in constructions ( interior and furniture making ) and always good powering devices is essentiaI.
I understand that complex digital devices as DACs are very sensitive for electrical noise.
So I hoped a better ( more powerful evt. balanced ) power supply would be “the” solution.
Maybe an extra device in front of the DX3 PRO+ could ( also) be an option. I’m thinking of an switch to have more optical input options. I don’t know if that solution would create even more problems. In another thread I saw people praise the Tindie SPDIF Audio switch.
Furthermore I saw in the excellent review by Amirm, the filters 1- to 7 have ( different ) impact on the behaviour in the higher audio range, creating “spikes“. I don’t know if this also infects the behaviour of the DAC. To me a quick checking with my headphone reveals a smoother tone, less fatigue with filter 7.

Furthermore, aside from the rather cheap looking power supply, I am not very pleased with the outputs. They are not connected/ screwed to the backplate, so physical stress, just by putting in plugs, could damage the inside.
Another thing: I believe the device is designed as balanced, reversed to SE in the end. Not sure anymore if that’s true, I saw too many sites the last day. Could it be turned into a balanced device if this is true!?!

Thanks, and I hope somebody could answer some of my question.
 
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pattox

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This to me to indicates a fault with the processing of the optical input stream by the topping. If you have another device with an optical out you could try that and see if the problem persists. If the problem exists when using both the tv and another device then the topping is faulty. If the problem shows up only with the tv but not the other device then a problem with the tv optical output is the cause.
The outputs/power supply you mention are not likely to be relevant.

I have 2 dx3’s; one being the very first model with the akm chipset, the other is the very latest dx3 pro+. Both sound excellent but I use the early version with the tv because the latest version with the ess chipset has minor pauses with music output from the tv due to the tv’s high jitter output. This happens because the topping reacts to these jitter errors from the tv by stopping momentarily to “recalibrate” the digital optical output stream. Consequently, mainly on music, these pauses to recalibrate occur. The older topping with the akm chipset does not react to these jitter errors and thereforeoesn’t have these momentary pauses.

While I’m a great fan of the latest dx3 pro+ its not the best choice to use with a tv because of the jitter problem. If asked, I would suggest something like an smsl with dppl adjustment which can vary the amount of jitter tolerance.
 

Johannezz

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Thanks for the reply.
I bought the DX3 PRO+ recently, so I’m trying to get the best out of it.
This afternoon I switched off the Bluetooth in de DX3- which itself has a DAC too, and I was under the impression that the cracking noise in the optical input was less prominent and frequent. Could there be interference between the Bluetooth chipset and the DAC processing the optical input.
When the optical output of the tv is chosen it is not clear if the Bluetooth transmitter is totally shut down.
I don’t know what dppl adjustment is, i’ll do some research. I know in professional audio there are master clocks and slaves, which would prevent jitter problems?
Still have the Bluetooth option as a backup for my tv, but I’m not giving up on the optical connection yet.
 
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pattox

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Bluetooth and optical are independent and there should be no interaction between them. DPPL (Digital phase locked loop) is an adjustment on some dacs which allows some "relaxation" in response to response to jitter errors. The DX3PRO+. doesn't have that adjustment.
Do a google search of DPPL. If you want to use this you will need a different dac.

All in all I suggest your topping is faulty.
 

Johannezz

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Hello Pattox,
As stated, I am an electronic noob. I also am very stubborn, witch has annoyed people in the past. That said: I am not stating your conclusion is wrong.
As for now, I have to deal with the Topping, that’s the fact. The optical in from the DX3x PRO+ works really fine with my old CD-player, so I am not giving up on the Topping yet.
Dispite my ignorance regarding jitter, I ‘ve read a lot about it in articles regarding studio gear, causing a lot of frustration in that area.

The miniaturisation in combination with complexity in not helping in troubleshooting.
So I begin with a new power supply, often a source of trouble in electronic devices. The switching in the power supply could generate noise in the device, but also adding it to the power grid, the same for the supply in the tv.

I found an old article about jitter. Seems solid to me, though I don’t fully understand the deep theory involved, but it points out the influence of a power supply on jitter. I don’t know if I can place a link here, so I do so. If it’s not good policy, please tell me and I will remove it instantly.
 

Johannezz

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I’m not in the position to do measurements, but I think it would be interesting to test the amount of electronic noise all of those switching power supply’s generate and how they interact to each other via the power grit. My aim is to make a power supply that is old fashion, by decoupling the net with a good transformer. Have to work it out, because I just starting with an elektronica course.
 
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pattox

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I’m not in the position to do measurements, but I think it would be interesting to test the amount of electronic noise all of those switching power supply’s generate and how they interact to each other via the power grit. My aim is to make a power supply that is old fashion, by decoupling the net with a good transformer. Have to work it out, because I just starting with an elektronica course.
If the optical in on the topping works fine when input is from one source but not when from the tv then suspect the tv's optical output. The unit should work fine with the factory power supply. Playing with that is an irrelevant distraction..but its up to you if you want to persevere.
 

Johannezz

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Thanks, this is a positive message.
I’m in the middle of a rather drastic renovation. Not able to test more sources to see if the outcome with the Topping is also flawed. Most of my audio gear is stored and not available in the near future.
For now I’m stuck with the Bluetooth connection from my tv. In fact: it doesn’t sound quite bad at all.
 

Johannezz

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Found a thread, reporting bad implementation of the optical out of my new and quiet expensive LG tv, causing troubles. LG seems to be notorious in that field.
The next step could be to extract digital sound from the eARC hdmi out. Have to figure out if there is a solution that is within my (rather tight) budget, that would work.
 
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pattox

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I doubt that the extracted hdmi output will be better but that shouldn’t stop you trying. The cracking sound problem you mentioned at the outset is strange and one I haven’t heard of before. Perhaps a fault in your tv. If the tv is not under warranty then I wonder whether a repair is possible or economical.
Double check the output settings in your tv and make sure they are set to pcm and not bitstream. Otherwise, if you are happy with the quality of the bluetooth output then just stay with it.
 

Johannezz

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Thanks for your positive input. I’ll try the settings!!!
Today my vacation starts and I’m not at home for 10 days. After that I’ll take further steps.
 
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