Topping DM7 8-Channel DAC Review

[da Choge]

Of course. But the question was "Can I do this" not "Should I do this" ^_^

Hi to all, I'm sorry about my noob question, but is there a way to use an 8ch DAC like the dm7 with a audio/video preamplifier?

You could do it with something like this:

This is the rearview of a Tascam LA-81MkII 8-Channel Balanced to Unbalanced Converter. It's a professional unit that has recently been discontinued in the US, but there are others like it. It is an active converter (not transformer-based like a Jensen). It doesn't have near the exceptional specs that the DM7 has, but if you used it for maybe the surround & center channels (into 5 of the AVR's 7.1 multichannel inputs), with the front channels direct to a balanced amplifier or preamp, I'm hoping you would get a decent result for multichannel (surround) music. You would have to balance the volume for all the channels, but that is something you can apparently do with the latest Topping firmware update. This is actually the unit I have and intend to use it just like I stated. Haven't had a chance to put it into action yet, but I will report on the result once I do.

 

[ArturoKiwi]

presuming that the AVP does not redigitize the signals

That's my doubt. It will useless to have a detailed and very good DAC if the preamp reprocess the input with its on DAC. Usually the a/v's dacs are awful

 

[ArturoKiwi]

My worries are confirmed by technical support. I report here the original in Italian and the Google translated one:
"Io: Buongiorno, stavo valutando la possibilità di acquistare l'amplificatore in oggetto per usarlo in modalità preamplificatore, ma ho un dubbio: In modalità Preamplificatore continua ad usare il dac integrato o posso sfruttare il mio dac?
Supporto Tecnico: Le confermo che in modalità preamplificatore viene sempre utilizzata l'elaborazione audio digitale dell'AVC.
Io: Anche nel il Marantz AV7706? Se sì, quali dac sono integrati nei due apparecchi?
Supporto Tecnico: Confermo anche per AV7706.
In AV7706 sono utilizzati 7 DAC stereo PCM5102APWR e in AVC-X3800H sono utilizzati 8 DAC stereo PCM5102APWR."

Translated:
"Me: Hello, I was evaluating the possibility of buying the amplifier in question to use it in preamp mode, but I have a doubt: In preamp mode, do you continue to use the integrated dac or can I use my dac?

Technical Support: I confirm that the digital audio processing of the AVC is always used in preamp mode.

Me: Also in the Marantz AV7706? If so, which dacs are integrated in the two devices?

Technical Support: I also confirm for AV7706.
The AV7706 uses 7 PCM5102APWR stereo DACs and the AVC-X3800H uses 8 PCM5102APWR stereo DACs."

 

[SuicideSquid]

My worries are confirmed by technical support. I report here the original in Italian and the Google translated one:
"Io: Buongiorno, stavo valutando la possibilità di acquistare l'amplificatore in oggetto per usarlo in modalità preamplificatore, ma ho un dubbio: In modalità Preamplificatore continua ad usare il dac integrato o posso sfruttare il mio dac?
Supporto Tecnico: Le confermo che in modalità preamplificatore viene sempre utilizzata l'elaborazione audio digitale dell'AVC.
Io: Anche nel il Marantz AV7706? Se sì, quali dac sono integrati nei due apparecchi?
Supporto Tecnico: Confermo anche per AV7706.
In AV7706 sono utilizzati 7 DAC stereo PCM5102APWR e in AVC-X3800H sono utilizzati 8 DAC stereo PCM5102APWR."

Translated:
"Me: Hello, I was evaluating the possibility of buying the amplifier in question to use it in preamp mode, but I have a doubt: In preamp mode, do you continue to use the integrated dac or can I use my dac?

Technical Support: I confirm that the digital audio processing of the AVC is always used in preamp mode.

Me: Also in the Marantz AV7706? If so, which dacs are integrated in the two devices?

Technical Support: I also confirm for AV7706.
The AV7706 uses 7 PCM5102APWR stereo DACs and the AVC-X3800H uses 8 PCM5102APWR stereo DACs."

Why do you want to use a separate DAC with an AV7706? The performance of some Topping and other stand-alone DACs is better on paper, but in practice it's unlikely or impossible to hear such differences.

 

[ArturoKiwi]

Why do you want to use a separate DAC with an AV7706? The performance of some Topping and other stand-alone DACs is better on paper, but in practice it's unlikely or impossible to hear such differences.

The Marantz AV7706 and new Denon AVC-X3800H share the same DAC chip.
If you look at Amirm's review of Marantz bigger brother, the AV8805, he obtain only a sinad of 92Db.

Marantz AV8805A Review (AV Processor)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Marantz AV8805A Audio/Video Processor (no amplifier). It is on kind loan from a member to see how the switch to ESS DAC has impacted the performance of this processor. AV8805A costs US $4999. I previously tested the AV8805 version. Even...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I think that there is an audible difference between this dac and a dm7 with its 120Db

 

[SuicideSquid]

The Marantz AV7706 and new Denon AVC-X3800H share the same DAC chip.
If you look at Amirm's review of Marantz bigger brother, the AV8805, he obtain only a sinad of 92Db.

Marantz AV8805A Review (AV Processor)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Marantz AV8805A Audio/Video Processor (no amplifier). It is on kind loan from a member to see how the switch to ESS DAC has impacted the performance of this processor. AV8805A costs US $4999. I previously tested the AV8805 version. Even...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I think that there is an audible difference between this dac and a dm7 with its 120Db

As you note, the 7706 shares the same DAC as the AVC-X3800H. The 8805 used the AKM AK4490. The 3800 is likely more comparable to the 7706, at least for DAC capabilities, than the 8805 is.

Even at 92dB you're only maybe going to hear a difference in certain edge cases. If the 7706 performs more like the 3800, which I think is reasonable, with a SINAD > 100dB, you're never going to hear a difference. I'd argue that in all cases, it's more likely that adding an additional device to the signal chain will cause an audible degradation in sound quality that will outweigh any modest improvement in SINAD you're going to get by moving from a "good enough" DAC to a state-of-the-art DAC.

 

[da Choge]

The Denon AVC/AVR-X3800H (a new 2022 model) does not have multichannel inputs. In fact, none of the 2022 Denon's or Marantz's will have multichannel inputs anymore (even Marantz's flagship processor, the AV10, will not have multichannel inputs). The same is true of all the newer Anthem units. I'm afraid the 7.1 multichannel input feature is rapidly becoming a thing of the past. To get a multichannel audio feed you will have to use the HDMI inputs of the newer units. Because I'm old school and wanted to retain the 7.1 multichannel input feature, I recently sprung for a Denon AVR-A110 (which has been discontinued).

 

[bobdog]

Not really. The output from the DM7 is balanced and I do not know of any AVP with multichannel balanced inputs. To use the unbalanced inputs in your AVP (presuming that the AVP does not redigitize the signals), you need a bunch of baluns or active converters to properly derive the unbalanced feed.

Thanks Cal. Big bummer. My Parasound P7 only has unbalanced RCAs for the 7.1 inputs. Is there even such a thing as a 8 channel preamp with balanced multichannel inputs. Has there ever been? I use the preamp for other inputs including Phono and not all of my amps have balanced input either so I can't do without it. Im itching to play multi channel from my hard drive but I will keep spinning discs for now.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Thanks Cal. Big bummer. My Parasound P7 only has unbalanced RCAs for the 7.1 inputs.

I know. That's why I stopped using it.

Is there even such a thing as a 8 channel preamp with balanced multichannel inputs. Has there ever been?

Not really. I had an Audio Research MP1 which had both RCA and XLR multichannel inputs but they were 5.1.

 

[dartinbout]

It would seem the trend for MC, AV friendly mfgrs, is to push everything to HDMI. After 4 AV receivers (Marantz, Emotiva, Denon and Integra) that had MC RCA inputs and HDMI audio input, with decent soundcards (Asus and Auzentech), HDMI audio is extremely deficient. The DM7 argues you should sell the Parasound and get some newer MC amps that support XLR. Using a pc should allow other inputs, Iphone and streaming for video.

 

[bobdog]

I know. That's why I stopped using it.

Not really. I had an Audio Research MP1 which had both RCA and XLR multichannel inputs but they were 5.1.

I looked for the Audio Research preamp. Could not find one and probably would not have wanted to spend that much if I could. I'd give up 7.1 movies if I had to.

 

[bobdog]

It would seem the trend for MC, AV friendly mfgrs, is to push everything to HDMI. After 4 AV receivers (Marantz, Emotiva, Denon and Integra) that had MC RCA inputs and HDMI audio input, with decent soundcards (Asus and Auzentech), HDMI audio is extremely deficient. The DM7 argues you should sell the Parasound and get some newer MC amps that support XLR. Using a pc should allow other inputs, Iphone and streaming for video.

It would seem the trend for MC, AV friendly mfgrs, is to push everything to HDMI. After 4 AV receivers (Marantz, Emotiva, Denon and Integra) that had MC RCA inputs and HDMI audio input, with decent soundcards (Asus and Auzentech), HDMI audio is extremely deficient. The DM7 argues you should sell the Parasound and get some newer MC amps that support XLR. Using a pc should allow other inputs, Iphone and streaming for video.

I can't give up an analog preamp. Spining records is more important to me than multichannel music from Roon. I can't at this time see going away from spinning Blurays for movies. Im almost never going to watch a movie more than once so I can't see ripping them to hard drive. I never liked the sound of any preamp/processor in my system. The P7 was a game changer sound wise. Im sad the market does not see the advantages of the approach.

 

[ArturoKiwi]

My Preamp is a Krell HATS 7.1 with 7.1 channel input, both rca and xlr. I'm very satisfied of it, but it lacks the new codec.
I don't understand the worries about the phono in, quite all the products have it. For example both Denon X3800H and Marantz AV7706 have phono in and... Av7706 has 7.1 rca input.

 

[bobdog]

My Preamp is a Krell HATS 7.1 with 7.1 channel input, both rca and xlr. I'm very satisfied of it, but it lacks the new codec.
I don't understand the worries about the phono in, quite all the products have it. For example both Denon X3800H and Marantz AV7706 have phono in and... Av7706 has 7.1 rca input.

I don't know about those AV products but everyone that I have owned has put the phono input through a ADC then back through a DAC. None of them ever sounded right to me. I used a two channel preamp with HTB along with a Pre/Pro for a while and was happier. The best sound I have heard and what I use now is an OPPO 105 directly into my 7.1 analog preamp no AVR or Pre/Pro. I Googled the HATS 7.1 and do not see balanced multichannel inputs only outputs same as I have now. Im crossing my fingers for a 8 channel DAC with unbalanced output.

 

[ArturoKiwi]

I don't know about those AV products but everyone that I have owned has put the phono input through a ADC then back through a DAC. None of them ever sounded right to me. I used a two channel preamp with HTB along with a Pre/Pro for a while and was happier. The best sound I have heard and what I use now is an OPPO 105 directly into my 7.1 analog preamp no AVR or Pre/Pro. I Googled the HATS 7.1 and do not see balanced multichannel inputs only outputs same as I have now. Im crossing my fingers for a 8 channel DAC with unbalanced output.

Sorry Iade a mistake. It has stereo XLR input, not 7.1

 

[Kal Rubinson]

I looked for the Audio Research preamp. Could not find one and probably would not have wanted to spend that much if I could. I'd give up 7.1 movies if I had to.

I'd advise against doing that. I bought one and loved everything about it except for 2 things. First was the lack of a volume knob. Up/down buttons are not acceptable, imho. Second was that it was a disturbingly noisy. I could not take that.

 

[Repdetect]

For home theater, you will probably want to add one or 2 subwoofers, and that takes up the "spare" pair of channels.



So where does your single HDMi connect to ?
Also, as far as I'm aware, HDMI is not a 'free to use" protocol. Manufacturers need to pay a license for its use. So unless they produce products in the tens of thousands that use it (to amortise the license), its probably not economical to include the feature. Unless of course you as a consumer is willing to pay for it ?

I AM willing to pay for it. Useless to me without HDMI.

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

$599 ? You get HDMI audio extractors for <$20.

It’s difficult to imagine that, if you can include an HDMI on and out on a $20 item, that’ll the licensing could be probitive on a $600 item.

I stand to be corrected.

 

[ArturoKiwi]

$599 ? You get HDMI audio extractors for <$20.

It’s difficult to imagine that, if you can include an HDMI on and out on a $20 item, that’ll the licensing could be probitive on a $600 item.

I stand to be corrected.

But did you read the review of this extractor by Amirm?

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

But did you read the review of this extractor by Amirm?

That’s not relevant. HDMI licensing is not applied on the basis of how well the unit measures, just on whether or not it uses an HDMI port or ports.

HDMI licensing is, I understand, $15,000 a year. So if you sold 15,000 units it’d be $1 a unit. If you sold 1,500 units it’d be $10 per unit. If you sold 150 units it’d be $100 per unit.

This is a $600 unit. I suspect +$50 (total price $600) wouldn’t reduce sales significantly. A bit of maths - they’d need to sell 300 units at a $50 price increase.