Topping D90SE Review (Balanced DAC)

[Pinox67]

On the subject of blind testing that has been mentioned in this thread repeatedly - I would like to propose an alternative test: I would like to know if @amirm, as a trained listener, can successfully pick out the D90SE against any DAC with its SINAD above 96dB.

If he can, the objectivist approach has an obvious problem. If he cannot, which is likely, then it will put things in perspective for a lot of people. It will indicate that this pursuit of ever more transparent measuring devices above a certain SINAD has had no effect at all on the listening experience. At least for human beings.
I’m not diminishing the engineering achievements here - they are real and measurable. However, the impact of these improvements on the end user are likely not objectively observable. The benefit to the end user would ironically fall in the psychological category - the knowledge that they possess the most transparent and best engineered DAC. This could likely improve their subjective listening experience due to the whole placebo psychological effect.

I agree. For THD/IMD (or SINAD) metrics there is the evidence in a lot of research (see this post for a reference) that they are not well correlated with subjective perception of distortion, that is one of the main responsible of the perceived sound quality. In the equation it shall be introduced also the psychoacoustics, that changes things a lot. In the absence of metrics that also take these effects into account (there are some but they are not widely used), only our ears can be the final judge of the sound quality.

 

[Nango]

are you telling me that you choose an audio system according to the measurements that are made, without relying on your personal listening experience?

I'm baffled

Your thinking implies what you like Mondays (or in the morning) you do like Tuesdays (or in the evening) same way ..... and this is simply wrong.

 

[Mulder]

I agree. For THD/IMD (or SINAD) metrics there is the evidence in a lot of research (see this post for a reference) that they are not well correlated with subjective perception of distortion, that is one of the main responsible of the perceived sound quality. In the equation it shall be introduced also the psychoacoustics, that changes things a lot. In the absence of metrics that also take these effects into account (there are some but they are not widely used), only our ears can be the final judge of the sound quality.

I read your text in the link and I found it interrsesting. But it is a bit of topic in this thread so I will not comment on it here.

 

[sergeauckland]

are you telling me that you choose an audio system according to the measurements that are made, without relying on your personal listening experience?

I'm baffled

I have always chosen audio equipment on the specs and measurements. Never on listening. If something measures well but I don't like it, that's my fault, not that of the equipment, so I should just get used to it.
As it happens, I've never been disappointed in anything I've bought on the numbers, they have all performed as expected.
S

 

[dmac6419]

why is comparison between DACs of different designs craziness? they sound different and should therefore be compared? not everything is about sinad that you cant even hear at this point. i dont understand the shutdown of comparisons? isnt that what this hobby is about? its not derailing the thread to compare DACs and saying this is the best dac in the world as far as sound has yet to be established. it is the best measureing and that deserves credit no doubt.

Um I think this is a thread about d90se and the review ( information) was for those who were interested in buying it to make an informed decision not about what's the best dac,just my opinion.

 

[nhs]

I really would like to see a picture inside the d90se especially the LPF part around the XLR output.
Is any one able to provide it?
Thanks

 

[dmac6419]

I really would like to see a picture inside the d90se especially the LPF part around the XLR output.
Is any one able to provide it?
Thanks

If you purchase one could you show us?

 

[Veri]

i believe im aloud to mention another DAC in the same thread as this DAC. its literally the same topic .

You can say things and compare things as long as it's in a civil manner and not cluttering the thread to ridiculous degree, I guess. But it's quite literally off-topic lol. The topic being "Topping D90SE Review (Balanced DAC)". Yes?

 

[bidn]

this reminds me of this:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

Thank you very much.
I didn't know there was a theory about this. I often noted people who know nothing on a given field are more humble, while some arrogant people who know a very very little bit don't realize how much more tons of knowledge there is (of which they have not a clue) and are overconfident while not realizing they are still very ignorant.

I made a search about this researcher, I found out he wrote several books, and one seems to be devoted to this kind of subject alone:
Dunning, David. Self-Insight: Roadblocks and Detours on the Path to knowing thyself. Psychology Press, 2005.
This book seems very interesting to understand the mindset of some of the trolls.

 

[nhs]

If you purchase one could you show us?

Show me first then I might purchase one

... And one more thing to ask, how is the power consumption of d90se in stand-by mode?

 

[slamman]

I have always chosen audio equipment on the specs and measurements. Never on listening. If something measures well but I don't like it, that's my fault, not that of the equipment, so I should just get used to it.
As it happens, I've never been disappointed in anything I've bought on the numbers, they have all performed as expected.
S

if something measures well and you dont like it. than maybe you should pick something on how it sounds not what the white paper says. measurements are very important but we are sacks of meat its important to listen. also i would love to see the inside of the d90se especially the power supply. would be very interesting. ! i would love to see how the circuit is designed around OP amps for the output stage.

 

[dmac6419]

I think not.

Show me first then I might purchase one

... And one more thing to ask, how is the power consumption of d90se in stand-by mode?

I might just buy one to replace the DX7 pro that's above the A90, but I won't open it up ta show ya.

 

[Peternz]

@johnyang, any hope for 8-12 vrms output level on XLR in a future update? This would help these excellent DACs fid homes in studios and mastering houses too. 5.2 vrms is nice to see here, but still low compared to the rest of the equipment in our professional racks. I know the pro market isn't your target audience, but this would find a nice home with such users.

But why? To overload a lot of equipment that is not designed to accept such a high level? This is not a pro audio dac. If you want one made for you, ask for it. Even if this high level does no overload an input it does lead to gain poisoning making volume adjustments annoying and difficult since the only useful part of the adjustment range is on the very bottom of it, everything else is just going to sound way too loud.

 

[Peternz]

I'll say this, I doubt 99% of audiophiles can repeatedly pick out the differences between two properly designed devices simply by ear. For those of us that want the best of the best, just because, measurements are the best way to find it.

If you truly believed that you would just buy a $100 properly designed dac and a $200 properly designed amplifier and be done with it. What possible interest could a dac costing what the d90se costs have to you if the difference between it and a much cheaper "properly designed" dac is inaudible?

What do you care about measurements beyond the point of simply proving that a device is "properly designed"?

 

[ShiZo]

if something measures well and you dont like it. than maybe you should pick something on how it sounds not what the white paper says. measurements are very important but we are sacks of meat its important to listen. also i would love to see the inside of the d90se especially the power supply. would be very interesting. ! i would love to see how the circuit is designed around OP amps for the output stage.

I have one on the way and would still love to see the inside . I understand why topping would not exactly want the design blasted everywhere though.

 

[pozz]

If you truly believed that you would just buy a $100 properly designed dac and a $200 properly designed amplifier and be done with it. What possible interest could a dac costing what the d90se costs have to you if the difference between it and a much cheaper "properly designed" dac is inaudible?

What do you care about measurements beyond the point of simply proving that a device is "properly designed"?

1. To prove it's properly designed and not broken.
2. To ensure that it will be transparent under every circumstance, even if my setup is suboptimal.

There are no $200 amps that are excellent. Good ones, but not excellent.

 

[Category 5]

If you truly believed that you would just buy a $100 properly designed dac and a $200 properly designed amplifier and be done with it. What possible interest could a dac costing what the d90se costs have to you if the difference between it and a much cheaper "properly designed" dac is inaudible?

What do you care about measurements beyond the point of simply proving that a device is "properly designed"?

"For those of us that want the best of the best, just because, measurements are the best way to find it."

I don't know if there is a $100 option, but the D30 is a decent option.

 

[infinitesymphony]

I don't know if there is a $100 option, but the D30 is a decent option.

Topping D10s, JDS Labs Atom DAC+, and Monoprice Liquid Spark are a few 112-113dB SINAD choices in the <$110 range. No balanced output in this price range, though, if it matters.

 

[Resolution]

Great job Topping and thank you for the tests Amir. Order for 1 D90SE placed.

 

[PeteL]

I have one on the way and would still love to see the inside . I understand why topping would not exactly want the design blasted everywhere though.

I don't see why they wouldn't, You have to be able to open it to repair it if something goes wrong no? There's nothing that warrants a patent in designing something like this, by saying this I don't want to minimize their work, it's exceptional, but just that opening the top will not show other designers how to achieve the same performance. Reaching optimal performance is much more than what you can see, really to me they can give out the whole BOM, that's not what is of value here.