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Topping D90SE Review (Balanced DAC)

slamman

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See my earlier post. It is your brain that changes, and the equipment is not responsible for an “increase in detail,” “a veil was lifted,” “I heard things I’ve never heard before” reactions. The differences you hear are real, even if they are just in your mind. Because you are paying attention to the music and focusing on whether or not there are audible differences between the gear, you are actually hearing differences rather than your brain just glossing over the music.

Amir and others on this forum have pointed out this effect numerous times. It’s real, and makes perfect sense. This blog page was cited earlier but it identifies the various psychoacoustic mechanisms at play:

https://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2012/04/what-we-hear.html

Also, watch and listen here—“what we hear might not always be the truth”:

i have an AB tester it is very easy to tell blindly different components. if you believe everyone whos says that different components sound different are lying or being fooled than thats fine but dont tell me what im hearing with a analogue AB tester. im not talking about 2 topping dacs with 0.0003 distortion. im talking denafrips ares 2 and bifrost 2, these DACS sound nothing alike anyone could AB test them. with my switch blind if they wanted. i think going around re posting the same paragraph to different people about what they can and cannot do is very demeaning and rude . i do not care if there is 4db more SINAD it means literally nothing. but a handmade discrete circuit? count me in. i would never claim it has better performance but it can sound cool. if you like people putting OP amps in parallel to get the lowest THD for no reason than go for it. i would never tell you what you can and cannot do or hear. will not go off topic anymore. i agree we shoud talk more about the d90se, although DAC talk in general is still on topic.
 

THW

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mim not talking about 2 topping dacs with 0.0003 distortion. im talking denafrips ares 2 and bifrost 2, these DACS sound nothing alike anyone could AB test them.

tbf isn’t the ARES 2 a quite competently designed DAC while the Bifrost 2 is basically a complete dumpster fire?

but ye going back on topic would be a good idea
 

Category 5

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@johnyang, any hope for 8-12 vrms output level on XLR in a future update? This would help these excellent DACs fid homes in studios and mastering houses too. 5.2 vrms is nice to see here, but still low compared to the rest of the equipment in our professional racks. I know the pro market isn't your target audience, but this would find a nice home with such users.
 

Billy Budapest

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i have an AB tester it is very easy to tell blindly different components. if you believe everyone whos says that different components sound different are lying or being fooled than thats fine but dont tell me what im hearing with a analogue AB tester. im not talking about 2 topping dacs with 0.0003 distortion. im talking denafrips ares 2 and bifrost 2, these DACS sound nothing alike anyone could AB test them. with my switch blind if they wanted. i think going around re posting the same paragraph to different people about what they can and cannot do is very demeaning and rude . i do not care if there is 4db more SINAD it means literally nothing. but a handmade discrete circuit? count me in. i would never claim it has better performance but it can sound cool. if you like people putting OP amps in parallel to get the lowest THD for no reason than go for it. i would never tell you what you can and cannot do or hear. will not go off topic anymore. i agree we shoud talk more about the d90se, although DAC talk in general is still on topic.
Read my post again, and read the blog post and watch the video. The differences you hear are real, but they are because your brain has changed, not the equipment.
 

Angsty

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This DAC measures extremely well in almost every way tested. I just ordered a D70s just a few days before this review. I have no intention of changing my order. Why? Because the differences in measured performance between the D70s and the D90SE are unlikely to be heard in my room and in my system. I love how Topping is pushing the envelope on what is possible with affordable DACs, but I'm not willing to become slavish to very tiny measured differences in DACs. The D70s will scratch an itch for me on how a new, "instrument grade" DAC compares to my 17 year-old trusted stalwart.
 

Cut-Throat

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That reviewer needs to go back to J-school. Oh wait, he probably never went to one because he obviously did not do any fact checking. Namely:

1). The reviewer states that the signal path circuitry contains only discrete devices and no “cheap opamps,” but just by looking at the photographs of the circuit board you can see at least 31 opamps used in the output circuitry. That’s a good thing rather than a bad thing, but it makes the reviewer’s statement about discrete circuitry completely wrong;

2). The reviewer cites one or two measurements and guesses at a third, but nowhere reveals how those measurements were obtained. We don’t know if the reviewer ran measurements and what gear was used, or if the reviewer just lifted the measurements off of a press release or spec sheet.

Shoddy reporting to say the least.

I think you are probably correct on this, as the reviewer would not discuss it with me. I have created a separate thread to try to get the actual facts on this information with people much more knowledgeable than myself. At the following link.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ect-info-regarding-op-amps.24303/#post-819814
 

Katji

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index.php


It made me think of Tom Cruise.
 

infinitesymphony

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The implementation of components is where innovation occurs. Some manufacturers are still eking out the last bit of performance from chips like the Cirrus Logic CS4398, released in 2002. Topping used it in 2017 for the original D30 and Focusrite still use it for their Clarett interfaces.

Everyone has access to the same stuff. It's not as simple as swapping in more expensive parts and expecting performance to improve.

Here on ASR, we can talk with the designer of the current best-measuring DAC of all time, accuse him of not understanding the most basic fundamentals of digital signal processing, and receive reasoned responses in real-time. What a world. :D
 

Category 5

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The ear is about the worst auditory measuring device there is. It has almost no memory. If there is any amount of silence between auditions probably half of the ability to hear a difference is gone. That said, there are things that can account for why people hear differences between devices. One is impedance. Speakers and amps can perform very differently based on the output impedance driving them. Some equipment is obviously more sensitive than others. There is also of course phase distortion, which can change the way transients are perceived and how frequencies interact across the audio spectrum. Of course the big one is harmonic distortion, which has the side effect of sometimes being euphonic, and other times not. The most coveted devices in pro audio are chosen not for their linearity, but for their large amounts of phase and harmonic distortion, because it sounds "musical" or pleasant. A DAC is not a device that usually benefits from such non-linearities.

Of course this can all be measured, and since a slight difference in volume is enough to make two otherwise identical devices sound wildly different, I don't see that there's much choice but to trust measurements when comparing hardware, especially when the differences are well beyond the limits of human perception as sis the case here.

I agree, that most of the differences heard are in the listener's head. Heck, listening to the same song on the same system first thing in the morning can be a totally different experience than at night.

I'll say this, I doubt 99% of audiophiles can repeatedly pick out the differences between two properly designed devices simply by ear. For those of us that want the best of the best, just because, measurements are the best way to find it.
 

Katji

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The implementation of components is where innovation occurs. Some manufacturers are still eking out the last bit of performance from chips like the Cirrus Logic CS4398, released in 2002. Topping used it in 2017 for the original D30 and Focusrite still use it for their Clarett interfaces.

Everyone has access to the same stuff. It's not as simple as swapping in more expensive parts and expecting performance to improve.

Here on ASR, we can talk with the designer of the current best-measuring DAC of all time, accuse him of not understanding the most basic fundamentals of digital signal processing, and receive reasoned responses in real-time. What a world. :D


:D

1623950310004.png
 

Mulder

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I'll say this, I doubt 99% of audiophiles can repeatedly pick out the differences between two properly designed devices simply by ear. For those of us that want the best of the best, just because, measurements are the best way to find it.
You're probably right, but in the end, when all the DACs and amplifiers are completely transparent, it does not matter what we buy, because everything will sound the same. The question is, do customers want it that way. I do not mean the majority in this forum, but the general HiFi customer.
 
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DHT 845

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This DAC measures extremely well in almost every way tested. I just ordered a D70s just a few days before this review. I have no intention of changing my order. Why? Because the differences in measured performance between the D70s and the D90SE are unlikely to be heard in my room and in my system. I love how Topping is pushing the envelope on what is possible with affordable DACs, but I'm not willing to become slavish to very tiny measured differences in DACs. The D70s will scratch an itch for me on how a new, "instrument grade" DAC compares to my 17 year-old trusted stalwart.
The d70s is great choice, believe me. Double AK4497 rulez !!! :)
 

DeepSpace57

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Please Discuss Dacs into three categories;

-DeltaSigma
-R2R
-Tube

Another way is nonsense. This is the product beating all other DS dacs out there. John and his design (D90se) deserve respect!!!

Any comparison between DACs in different categories is craziness, nothing else. This is just matter of personal preference. However, measurements in the categories are still only rocking solid way to understand if it is crap.
 

Category 5

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The implementation of components is where innovation occurs. Some manufacturers are still eking out the last bit of performance from chips like the Cirrus Logic CS4398, released in 2002. Topping used it in 2017 for the original D30 and Focusrite still use it for their Clarett interfaces.

Everyone has access to the same stuff. It's not as simple as swapping in more expensive parts and expecting performance to improve.

Here on ASR, we can talk with the designer of the current best-measuring DAC of all time, accuse him of not understanding the most basic fundamentals of digital signal processing, and receive reasoned responses in real-time. What a world. :D


Actually, Lynx used it in the Aurora and they still use it in the newer Aurora N. Both are amazing converters, and a lot of the music we love and listen to was created with them.
 

PuX

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I don’t see 7 different fonts here, I see 4. One is the MQA logo and you have to use it. The other is the Topping logo, and Topping gets a pass for using their own stylized font for their own logo. So, we are left with 2 fonts, one a sans serif font for the select/on-off switch and the other an italic font on the bottom announcing the model name. I agree that the italic font isn’t super attractive, but the front panel is not the aesthetic disaster you suggest.
I counted both on front and back. uppercase, lowercase, random positions of labels - there's no consistency, I don't see how this can be an argument...

on front 2 buttons have arrows inside, but power is labeled on the right. the more I look at it, the crazier it gets.

and they don't have to put MQA logo on the front, also they don't have to use MQA at all. I don't see a DSD logo by the way, but assume it is probably supported. and they used to put it on other models. no clue what's going on.
 

Angsty

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Please Discuss Dacs into three categories;

-DeltaSigma
-R2R
-Tube

Another way is nonsense. This is the product beating all other DS dacs out there. John and his design (D90se) deserve respect!!!

Any comparison between DACs in different categories is craziness, nothing else. This is just matter of personal preference. However, measurements in the categories are still only rocking solid way to understand if it is crap.
There are even more categories than that (like "multi-bit"), but it's pretty much all for naught. Measured output is objective. People may have preferences about which measurements are most impactful to them, but dividing DACs into categories doesn't make measured output less relevant. It just seems like a way to categorize preferences for output deviation.
 

AdamG

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Didn’t I just ask everyone to get back on Topic? Come on guys, I’m trying to win the U.S. Open here and I’m never going to make this Put if you all keep distracting me. :cool:
 
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